Author Topic: Self-aware machines.  (Read 6873 times)

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Leeor

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Self-aware machines.
« on: November 19, 2008, 03:45:24 PM »
In the future, man may discover a way to bring machines alive and sapien...

Do you support it, or against it?

I am against this idea for two reasons.

One: God didnt make other sapient beings for a reason.
Two: They might rebell against Mankind and destroy us...


What do you have in mind?

abigailian

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2008, 03:58:26 PM »
Eh, who knows, he may have made other sapient beings. But I'm pretty sure he's the only one who knows what he's doing when he gives people that kind of power. (Humans are actually pretty scary as it is. Imagine how human beigs would screw up with creating self-awareness in other beings.)

That said, I'm not really aganst moving forward with the technology, I just don't think we'll ever really get to that problem.
This might hurt, it's not safe / But I know that I've gotta make a change / I don't care if I break,
At least I'll be feeling something


Leeor

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2008, 04:01:44 PM »
Why, do you think we wont be advanced enought to make sapient beings?

Valtier

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2008, 06:06:42 PM »
Erm, throwing aside the fact that I do not see it even being possible outside of a science fiction author's world...

I don't see anything wrong with self-aware machines.  I don't see the danger of an uprising being any more likely than the dangers of SETI attracting ebul aliums to enslave/kill us all.

Reives

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 07:48:28 PM »
I find the first argument of "God didn't make other beings" rather preposterous even from a religious perspective (albeit me being not religious), mainly for the base point that was already touched on - If one is to argue something with the support of "God did or did not allow something" in this circumstance, then the argument is completely shattered by the reverse argument of "God allowed people to have the ability to make other sapient beings for a reason"; assuming the said ability is present for the sake of the argument to begin with.

Now, "sapient" is a highly arbitrary term here. How exactly do you decide if something is sapient? We cannot get inside one's head in reality, so the only thing we can interpret from is the exterior reactions - and it doesn't take much to achieve that. Actually, you can even call your computer self-aware for that matter; it is completely "aware" of its own state and things that are going on with it at all times.

But then you could get into the argument that "it is not the 'self awareness'" that we are talking about - in which case you may never categorize a machine as self-aware, because that definition is humanly encrypted (as with all semantics) to the condition of the subject being human.

But even if you are against it, I can tell you that there's not much to worry about. When AI started during the 1950s (or 40s if you count the horridly simplistic stuff), it was predicted that the field would create all kinds of possibilities within the next few years or decade - and today, some 50 years later, most of them are not even close to being possible yet.

[I'm taking an AI course right now actually, hahah. Have more to say, but I'll leave the post as is.]

zekallinos

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 08:12:23 PM »
In other words, artificial intelligence.

Let's not watch too much movies to think they will really dominate us. They are dependent on energy, mind you, and the civilization should be smart enough to keep their numbers/autonomy under control. And forget about personal robotic service, we don't have that much resources on planet earth. The effects of over-consummation is already falling back on us as it is.

Is it doable though? Yes, I'm sure it is. But not by magic. You can't force intelligence into any being, they have to get it. In other words, it might take a few years for each robot to achieve proper intelligence, just as a baby grows. Naturally, you will likely want it to be able to do a specific task and nothing more, so forget about them having any creativity (needed) or having philosophical thoughts. The human brain is just another machine, but being only organic instead and being much more powerful (DNA computers are coming soon...).

abigailian

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2008, 08:14:17 PM »
You still get that sort of storyline in movies and thrillers all the time, where the artificial intelligence begins to reproduce itself, become more complex than we could have guessed, threaten humanity etc. It makes me wonder if there's a deeper meaning behind those...

Interesting stuff, Reives. I didn't even know they had that sort of college course. I guess for me, I would say I that it qualifies as self-aware when it begins to have 'emotions' in a sense (Bicentennial Man-esque), where it begins to think about things beyond it's immediate commands or needs, and is also aware of these emotions. The idea that machines can do this is a little absurd to me, but we'll see what happens.
This might hurt, it's not safe / But I know that I've gotta make a change / I don't care if I break,
At least I'll be feeling something


Reives

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2008, 08:14:37 PM »
In other words, artificial intelligence.

Let's not watch too much movies to think they will really dominate us. They are dependent on energy, mind you, and the civilization should be smart enough to keep their numbers/autonomy under control. And forget about personal robotic service, we don't have that much resources on planet earth. The effects of over-consummation is already falling back on us as it is.

Is it doable though? Yes, I'm sure it is. But not by magic. You can't force intelligence into any being, they have to get it. In other words, it might take a few years for each robot to achieve proper intelligence, just as a baby grows. Naturally, you will likely want it to be able to do a specific task and nothing more, so forget about them having any creativity (needed) or having philosophical thoughts. The human brain is just another machine, but being only organic instead and being much more powerful (DNA computers are coming soon...).
^That reminds me. Speaking of which, there are two (main) types of AI - one is through internal coding/programming, and the other is through actually "recreating the human brain" with electronic devices.

zekallinos

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2008, 08:19:51 PM »
We won't be able to do it with electronics though, because the strength of our brain is the millions of brain cells (think of them as processors) that are each linked to many other, but most importantly, those links can change. We can only create so many processors - even if they are faster, the end result is that there won't be thousands of different analysis of the same situation at once (we are only conscious of it when the right one pops-up though).

Reives

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2008, 08:23:49 PM »
I guess for me, I would say I that it qualifies as self-aware when it begins to have 'emotions' in a sense (Bicentennial Man-esque), where it begins to think about things beyond it's immediate commands or needs, and is also aware of these emotions. The idea that machines can do this is a little absurd to me, but we'll see what happens.
The thing with that though, again, is how do you determine if something has emotions? It sounds like a simple question, but it really is very, very arbitrary. Actually, AI developers have mostly agreed for the track of AI development to simply create a machine that acts like a rational being, but may not necessarily be one. While that sounds like it makes all the difference in the world (it certainly "calms" a lot of the controversy on an artificial level), this rises the question again. If it behaves rationally, or, as if it has emotions, does it not sort of possess those emotions?

In a way, one can almost look at humans' emotions and "pain" as simple reflexes - we touch fire and our hands hurt, but that pain is simply telling our body that our body is being damaged. While it feels from a first person perspective that it is much more than that, when you take a step back, all it sort of is is that it is a signal that "forces" us to react in a certain way.

I'm not on either side of whether a machine can feel or whatnot, and I do believe that it is quite an arbitrary thing to be judged. But I do think that when it comes to the subject, there is somewhat of a natural bias with the inclination of "a machine cannot feel simply because it can't" - because the word was originally created for, and has been for who knows how long, fleshy organisms.

Reives

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2008, 08:28:34 PM »
We won't be able to do it with electronics though, because the strength of our brain is the millions of brain cells (think of them as processors) that are each linked to many other, but most importantly, those links can change. We can only create so many processors - even if they are faster, the end result is that there won't be thousands of different analysis of the same situation at once (we are only conscious of it when the right one pops-up though).
Oh of course it won't be a replica. But the field remains none the less, for the foundational structure that it is based on. The benefit of this supposed route contributes to fields that has to do with intelligence, but not necessarily create intelligence - but it is a study of intelligence none the less.

Leeor

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 08:59:20 AM »
(Just for the topic, were not talking about AI, we are  talking about self-aware,intelligent,creative,philosophical, self thinking machines)

zekallinos

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2008, 10:14:53 AM »
But that would require intelligence to do so, and as long as we create it, it's artificial isn't it? Naturally, I'm sure none of us mind the fact that there are computers who are able to, say, calculate every details of every square meter or a hurricane, but rather AI at it's utmost state, where it becomes just like an human, that is problematic.

Oh, and a little interesting information I found, true or not, it can't be too far from reality :
Quote
1.810^22 bits (2.25 zettabytes) amount of information that can be stored in 1 gram of DNA

« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 04:20:03 PM by zekallinos »

Ruzu

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2008, 08:47:52 PM »
In the future, man may discover a way to bring machines alive and sapien...

Do you support it, or against it?

I am against this idea for two reasons.

One: God didnt make other sapient beings for a reason.
Two: They might rebell against Mankind and destroy us...


What do you have in mind?
I want to throw my two peices in this.

One: That doesn't for everyone, not all of us believe god created the humans. We could have someone easily say god doesn't exist. I'm mainly just saying not everyone believes in god (I'm not saying I don't) and so we can't really classify this as a arguement no offense mind you.

Two: That could happen I'm not saying it can't but theres more of a chance of idiots taking over the soviet union and the united states and using nukes on the world which has been said could destroy earth and the inhabitants. Though AIs could easily do this also.

Three: I find that this can be pretty cool as, some of the AIs can maybe give something to this world that we humans could and or cannot.[/rant]
I'll stop now.

Valtier

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Re: Self-aware machines.
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 11:55:02 PM »
I'd just as soon leave religion out of the arguement.  And... the Soviet Union has dissolved Ruzu... :p

The only ethical issue I see is how such beings would be treated.