Author Topic: Good ol' "free will"  (Read 4035 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Reives

  • Dr Platplat
  • Director
  • Tier 7
  • ****
  • Posts: 11332
  • Gender: Male
    • Freebird Games
  • Current Mood: happy happy
Good ol' "free will"
« on: October 31, 2008, 12:33:49 AM »
I know the topic is rather generic and likely recursive, but always decent topic to get some thoughts in as anyone can contribute.

So, free will. Does it exist?

Sarkilas

  • *
  • Tier 6
  • **
  • Posts: 429
  • Gender: Male
  • That guy
  • Current Mood: creative creative
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2008, 08:11:05 AM »
This depends entirely upon what you define by free will. Most countries has its laws, and if you go against these laws by your free will, you will be punished. Would you call it free will to get punishment for something you wanted to do? This is a very generic bit, but defining free will is difficult. Of course, I'm not saying laws are wrong. It's required, or we all would've been in a dump already, or dead for that matter.

In most countries (especially western ones) you have a so-called free will, which means, unless you disobey the law, you can do "whatever" you feel like. I don't believe this defines free will, but we wouldn't last long if it weren't this way.

Then again, countries differ in laws, so free will might be different from country to country.

Need scripting help? Toss me a PM and I'll see what I can do.
Also able to help with anything RMXP related. Please do not hesitate to ask.

zekallinos

  • *
  • Tier 5
  • **
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2008, 10:03:10 AM »
(Yay discussions! Me love discussions  :reivsmile:)

In a society context, I define "free will" or even "liberty" as having only one limit, that limit being the ones of others. Laws being there, in most cases, to protect those (putting aside the fact that there are, there as been, and will be people who don't give a shit about that).

Now in a grander scheme of things, it's a little harder to say, since we lack of sufficient knowledge. But basically, we are made out of molecules, made of atoms, made of neutrinos, electrons and protons, made of quarks (?) made of super strings(??). What we call "thoughts" are essentially energy in the form of electrical impulses. What if we understood these elements to their finest details? Knowing the position, vector, mass of everything in the universe, wouldn't we be able to predict the future merely by calculating(with the biggest computer farm ever) these things?

But quantum mechanics says that everything in microscopic level as only waves of probabilities. You can only the the % of things being at one place or another. Now what, instead of zero free will it's only a game of chance where you have no control on the outcome? Not better.

In any case, free will as we see it is just the right to say whatever you want. Truth is, that "whatever you want" won't do anything, not more then other countries where you simply don't have freedom of speech. The high class (not the governement, but the capitalists) are not total idiots, you complaining will not prevent them to loose money (power). But by giving this (rather natural) liberty, they keep us happy. That's how things run nowdays (and can't really be otherwise).

Valtier

  • Tier 5
  • *
  • Posts: 368
  • Gender: Male
  • Apathy taken to an artform
  • Current Mood: depressed depressed
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2008, 10:33:47 AM »
I don't believe that free will exists in the strictest sense.  Only different levels of command from different sources.  At the basest level, we are guided by base instinct and will to survive.  Past that, we follow whatever our own common sense and whim tell us (what we usually think of as freedom).  Then there is an outside force influencing us to act in a certain way, whether actively or passively.

You'd need to define "freedom" first, really...

Reives

  • Dr Platplat
  • Director
  • Tier 7
  • ****
  • Posts: 11332
  • Gender: Male
    • Freebird Games
  • Current Mood: happy happy
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2008, 05:32:56 PM »
Yeah that's true, semantics have a substantial role in arbitrary topics like these. As have been brought up, it can be argued in the most fundamental terms by simply stating that our mental mechanics are affected by our surroundings, hence we do not have the full control of things - but that's going over what many would mean when they state "free will".

Quote
But quantum mechanics says that everything in microscopic level as only waves of probabilities. You can only the the % of things being at one place or another
Oh really? I never knew that and have been sticking with the "one circumstance = one single possible outcome" all this time.



zekallinos

  • *
  • Tier 5
  • **
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2008, 10:56:26 PM »
Maybe it is, but we just haven't found the answer to the reason, only the result, which the scientists did find (proven experiment after experiment).

Then again, we are far from knowing the deep secrets of nature, and even if we did it would not be of that much use (think of it - you can know how an atom works, how 10 atoms works, how 1 million atom works, but can you have a computer able to calculate the amount of atoms in the combined brains of everyone? Kinda hard.)

abigailian

  • isn't creeped out by yellow wallpaper
  • Mod-Suspect
  • Tier 7
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
  • Gender: Female
  • Oh emm SNAP!
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2008, 11:37:07 PM »
I don't understand this fad of arguing that people don't have free will. I think most people realize they are making choices and decisions, and at least no one is arguing that there isn't a 'sense' of having free will (how was that supposed to have come about anyway, the illusion without the actual thing?).

At the same time, I'm not sure if there are any decisions made that do not  have some element of self-interest in them. That's a question I've been trying to figure out.
This might hurt, it's not safe / But I know that I've gotta make a change / I don't care if I break,
At least I'll be feeling something


Legacyblade

  • 発行所は頑張って下さい!
  • Mod-Suspect
  • Tier 7
  • *
  • Posts: 2952
  • Gender: Male
  • Current Mood: playful playful
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2008, 02:39:55 PM »
People have free will. It's impossible to make someone do something without their consent. (I'm not even going to go into the subject of hypnotism, brain wash, or anything else). You can make it impossible for someone to make certain choices, but they never loose the ability to choose. True, people can be manipulated, hurt, killed, or punished as a result of their actions, or in an attempt to cause someone to take certain actions, but in the end its always a choice. Just because we don't yet know how to tell where electrons are doesn't change the fact that people can choose. Honestly, even electrons choose, XD (they can teleport to china for no apparent reason :P)

Anyways, to summarize: YES we have free will. True, laws can restrict said free will, by limiting our choices, or presenting punishments. But can you seriously argue that you didn't choose to think these things? Or do you think you didn't choose to express your opinion on this subject. People could have attempted to force, or convince you to do these things, but it is always a choice (even if they grab your hand, and press the post button with it, you didn't press the button, that person chose to do so)

abigailian

  • isn't creeped out by yellow wallpaper
  • Mod-Suspect
  • Tier 7
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
  • Gender: Female
  • Oh emm SNAP!
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2008, 05:58:56 PM »
There're arguments out there that ultimately people's decisions are determined by genetics and circumstance, not that other people can force them to do something. Like ultimately we will make th choice that is in our own self-interest. But since there are so many levels of self-interest, it's kind of difficult to determine when people chose their own self-interest or something else.
This might hurt, it's not safe / But I know that I've gotta make a change / I don't care if I break,
At least I'll be feeling something


zekallinos

  • *
  • Tier 5
  • **
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2008, 07:40:47 PM »
Well, again, it's pretty much on how you define free will. Yes, nobody's going to prevent you from making any choice, since we can go as far as choosing to think about apples or think about oranges (mind control doesn't quite exist). The thing is, all these perception as not really more then chemical-electric signal in our brains. In fact, we can't even prove the world is real, if I really am typing this text or not, or if you guys are all from within my imagination.

Unless you can start manipulating those signals (then again, it's your own brain who decides that), you don't actually control yourself if we went from a omniscient/non-human perspective. As for the genetics, it affects the way links between your brain cells (neurons) form, just as living life affects those. Because you have like 2^(10^11) possibilities of different connections, hence why everyone is unique. That alone won't "remove" your free will.

Stardale

  • Freebird Linguist-Actor
  • *
  • Tier 7
  • **
  • Posts: 3760
  • Gender: Male
    • Blog
  • Current Mood: happy happy
  • Discord ID: senseigab#6268
  • Twitter: senseigab
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2008, 08:32:31 AM »
Along with freedom, you have reason. If you do not have reason, then what should be your purpose hmmm? In our CLEd or should I say Christian Living Education subject in school, you actually have free will but it has its limitations. Imo, I have to agree with our teacher. Of course you do not have the right to kill, to commit adultery and anything else that violates the law.

On the other hand, freewill, according to catholic encyclopedia:
Quote
The question of free will, moral liberty, or the liberum arbitrium of the Schoolmen, ranks amongst the three or four most important philosophical problems of all time. It ramifies into ethics, theology, metaphysics, and psychology. The view adopted in response to it will determine a man's position in regard to the most momentous issues that present themselves to the human mind. On the one hand, does man possess genuine moral freedom, power of real choice, true ability to determine the course of his thoughts and volitions, to decide which motives shall prevail within his mind, to modify and mould his own character? Or, on the other, are man's thoughts and volition, his character and external actions, all merely the inevitable outcome of his circumstances? Are they all inexorably predetermined in every detail along rigid lines by events of the past, over which he himself has had no sort of control? This is the real import of the free-will problem.

But in general, it is the question of free will, moral liberty, or the liberum arbitrium of the Schoolmen, ranks amongst the three or four most important philosophical problems of all time. It ramifies into ethics, theology, metaphysics, and psychology. The view adopted in response to it will determine a man's position in regard to the most momentous issues that present themselves to the human mind. On the one hand, does man possess genuine moral freedom, power of real choice, true ability to determine the course of his thoughts and volition, to decide which motives shall prevail within his mind, to modify and mound his own character? Or, on the other, are man's thoughts and volition, his character and external actions, all merely the inevitable outcome of his circumstances? Are they all inexorably predetermined in every detail along rigid lines by events of the past, over which he himself has had no sort of control? This is the real import of the free-will problem. Phew. That's from our modules.

Now, for the question that 'Does it exist?'. I must say it is a yes, as long as it is proper and rightful. We do things according to how we plan or desire to do it. Thats how I understand it. Ta.

soranokira

  • *
  • Tier 7
  • **
  • Posts: 3322
  • Gender: Male
  • Current Mood: bored bored
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2008, 09:01:56 AM »
Hmm..not really into the mood to debate yet, but for a brief one, taking quite a 'sitting on the fence' stand.

"Free Will" is quite ambiguous, but it probably exists. You can choose to do anything by your free will, but sometimes, we generally take it that everything we do will affect others, so we should always be more considerate of others. Whether you do anything out of your own 'free will', it's a given that we should not do things that will drastically affect another negatively, even more so if have never done so to others as well before. However, it's also our free will to go against this 'given rule' and cause great harm/destruction to someone. So free will does exist, but we often and naturally put it under control, but sometimes, due to additional circumstances, the free will is limited so drastically to the point that it doesn't even seem to exist, and our life is one under control, without the free will to do anything we want.

My head is a little...shaky now. Probably will be very...blur.lolx. Can't absorb now. Need some time to rest and come back and give a better view.
The wind will cease to be one day, and as I pass, what marks remain?
Graduation is not the end, we'll still be friends from here on out

Valtier

  • Tier 5
  • *
  • Posts: 368
  • Gender: Male
  • Apathy taken to an artform
  • Current Mood: depressed depressed
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2009, 02:46:32 PM »
But isn't it just as possible to say that your actions and thinking are a direct product of the world around you?  Free will becomes less than free if every action you take is a reaction to a stimulus.

soranokira

  • *
  • Tier 7
  • **
  • Posts: 3322
  • Gender: Male
  • Current Mood: bored bored
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2009, 11:35:31 PM »
that's why I said it's quite ambiguous, and it might just exist, but doesn't seem so.

Quote
So free will does exist, but we often and naturally put it under control, but sometimes, due to additional circumstances, the free will is limited so drastically to the point that it doesn't even seem to exist, and our life is one under control, without the free will to do anything we want.

indeed, actions and choices are due to the effect from the actions of others. so free will is 'limited' to the point it seems non-existent. but at the same time, there will be more than one choice left, so it's up to us to choose. The reason everything is limited to only one choice is because we always try to choose the option that appears to be the 'best', but best in what sense? Forcing ourselves to choose the 'best' is also one of the limiters in our daily lives.

Agree?
The wind will cease to be one day, and as I pass, what marks remain?
Graduation is not the end, we'll still be friends from here on out

Dovydas

  • Tier 3
  • *
  • Posts: 56
  • Gender: Male
  • The dragon lives on...
    • Toa's Union Gaming
Re: Good ol' "free will"
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 03:35:45 AM »
Free will, in my opinion, exists. You can steal an item from a shop, you just (usually) won't because you stealing will place you in the place of a criminal. So, either your conscience or your fear stops you, with the addition of your will. You're not forced to follow the law, you're just afterwards (usually) caught and forced to stop breaking the law. And even then you can refuse and keep to whatever choice you have. There is no "no more choices" position in life. There always are at least three choices in the list.