Author Topic: Should the military service be mandatory?  (Read 21769 times)

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Eli

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Should the military service be mandatory?
« on: February 28, 2014, 11:27:37 AM »
"A Fat Kid" is going to military service and my opinion that military service should not be mandatory seems to have a potential for debates.
Since I started the debate in his farewell topic I feel guilty for hijacking the topic so I started a new one in this section.
Here is what I said that started it:
Quote from: Ali
I hope one day military service would no longer be mandatory in any country.

Here are the replies up to this point:
I on the other hand think there should be at least some for (like 1-2 years) of compulsory service. It teaches discipline, respect, order and safety.

It teaches discipline, respect, order and safety.

You forgot to mention drinking.

I don't really drink so I wouldn't know Kyo.

I don't drink either. But I know what they do in my country's military service.

Is that so? Poland is most secretive military power in Europe I couldn't even found their current issue cammies.


In my opinion it really depends on the country and different military bases that you may be assigned to, from what I hear of those who finished their military service in my country, there was everything but discipline, respect, order and safety.

But even if it teaches discipline, respect, order and safety, should it be mandatory?
Should we expect everyone to agree to our definition of discipline, respect, order and safety?
Even if everybody agrees that something is good for you, should it be mandatory?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 11:30:05 AM by Ali »

Miss Nile

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2014, 02:32:49 PM »
Of course it has to be. At least in my opinion. Sure, it teaches respect, discipline, order and safety but other than that, it teaches you the morals of the importance of your country, your home and builds within you a meaning of special love and sacrifice for your people and flag.

Consider that the country suddenly goes into war and needs to recruit more men for its forces, at least those who'd been through it before wouldn't be completely clueless about weapons and how things work. In the very least, it would save time and effort in the time of need because you'd have previously-trained soldiers, you wouldn't need to teach them all over again.

I know that it's a hassle for most men to have 1 or 2 years of their life obligatory into the military service, and some, if not at all, would rather do something else more useful to them in that time, but really, one year or two isn't that much if it could save your country one day.

Just my two cents. :3

atommo

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2014, 03:32:45 PM »
I never knew military service was mandatory in other parts of Europe O_O In the UK you don't have to.

Also,
it teaches you the morals of the importance of your country, your home and builds within you a meaning of special love and sacrifice for your people and flag.

Some people may not think quite the same way. I mean, my mum's dad was forced into the army during WWII and I'm pretty sure it was a very rough time. According to my mum, whenever the war was brought up he'd avoid talking about it. It really is controversial to me.

The thing is, I don't agree with forcing people to do something if they really don't want to, especially when there's such a real chance of death. I sure wouldn't like dying in a war I didn't agree with in the first place. However, at the same time, like in WWII, if no-one fought, the UK would most likely have fallen to the nazis, and I'm sure lots of people wouldn't have liked that.

Then again, it must've been the same on the German side too. Lots of people were forced to fight even though they didn't want to, and you end up with the tragic scene of people reluctantly killing each other for no personal reason, but because some guy at the top is making them.

For me, I would ideally only want to fight if I agreed with the cause, which I probably wouldn't in most cases. Generally, it is more effective to settle things through peaceful means, with fighting being a last resort.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 03:35:24 PM by atommo »
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The sentence above is true

Just Lance

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2014, 05:07:50 PM »
Atommo when in a large scale conflict like the Second World War was many countries ordered compulsory service. Many governments still have the power to do so if there is a need. Also by having compulsory service does not necessarily mean you must go and fight a war. There are many positions within the military that do not require you to hold a rifle. Most often overlooked ones are mechanics, engineer and generally people that supply the fighting branches of the military and the guys and gals from motor pools.
For example a great lad Tan who I consider a friend is an ex-USAF EMT who was stationed in Yokohama base in Japan never had to have a weapon outside small arms training.
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Eli

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 05:47:56 PM »
I agree with most of the points atommo made.

Miss Nile, by forced conscription I will never gain love for the flag, I find the flag just a tool, a symbol that is used for distinction.
I know many people have special feelings about their flag, etc. and I respect those people, but I'm not one of them.
And about the possibility of a sudden war, my hope is to reach a point that a sudden war is not possible anymore. We both live in middle east and a sudden war is very real to us, but by playing an integral role in global economy and politics hopefully one day that sudden war would be as distant to us as it is to many european countries now, those same countries that fought in World Wars.
I'm not saying that militaries should be abandoned, the current state of the world is certainly not ready for it, but militaries should consist of people who voluntarily join them.
And please note that in some countries mandatory military service is for women too. I find it sexist that some countries only conscript men, but I think in this case sexism is better than forcing both men and women.

Just Lance, are not those positions limited? And lets say my expertise is not needed, do I still have a choice?
And what if my expertise is needed but I decide to not fix weapons (just an example) that are used by the soldiers to kill?

Miss Nile

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2014, 06:23:21 PM »
Ali, we both know that not having a sudden war start anytime, and depending more on politics and economy, as beautiful as that dream is, won't become real anytime soon. For the meantime, you have to act to protect yourself as you must and as you can.

I differ with you on the flag thing-I only meant it as a symbol of the love of your country, your people, anything special about your land. Myself, I believe it's part of who we are to love our home countries no matter how horrible they are. And part of that love is to be ready to sacrifice your life to protect it.

Of course, being forced to enter military won't make you love your country any better, but I believe it would at least build inside you certain morals towards respect and sacrifice not only towards your country but also generally.

As for not joining a war that you're not convinced of or you don't want to fight in, who ever wants to fight in a war? But let's say that your country is suddenly attacked and endangered by an enemy; how many would sit home and prefer not to fight? Wouldn't that necessarily mean the defeat of this land?

And I know that death and tragedies are of course quite possible to happen here but that's to be expected whenever military and wars are mentioned.

As for sexism, Ali, I think it's got to do with religions more than sexism between men and women. ^^

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2014, 06:47:47 PM »
I don't believe compulsory service is necessary at all in any developed nation. Discipline, respect, order and safety are things that a reasonable parent should teach their child, not a drill instructor. It's an outdated concept rooted from expansionist imperialism, something very alien in the 21st century. To many youths, it's just a disruptive waste of time.

I'd also like to think that one day there wouldn't be a need for compulsory service in any country - ideally, there wouldn't be armed forces to begin with. Of course that's unlikely to happen anytime soon.
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Just Lance

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 05:38:51 PM »
You know I've heard too many stories of people being stupid and blowing his or her brain out because of mishandling a firearm. I know a lot of those where they were more fortunate and ended up with something like partial castration or a hole in the leg. So don't make me to stress the importance of safety.
Damn I've even seen a teen kid that took his parents 1911 took it to a bathroom cocked with round in the chamber and safety off he manipulated this gun in his left hand (that means without access to firearms control levers) in front of a camera EVEN DOWN THE FREAKING BARREL! I was glad I had not my 75 on my belt because I was sure grabbing for it when I literary saw inside of a loaded .45.
One thing I would never EVER do is pointing my gun loaded or unloaded even totally empty with a slide back on somebody without a proper reason to shoot that person.

"As long as humans exist, there will be weapons in this world. And we are better off with knowing how to use them and apply them for the right reasons than not knowing how to use them."
Dom Raso US Navy SEALs

Talking about a world where we don't need military is a nice picture but is about as real as My Little Pony. As long as there will be radicals of any religious, political or philosophical believe there will be people willing to slaughter innocent in some twisted way how to prove their ideals are the "might right" and who to oppose them than a military force?

In case there is a threat to the country with whch a standing military force can't cope with there will be need for a new recruits and even though skills like these are perishable they are much more easier to remind than teach them anew.
Just because we made something faster bigger/smaller stronger does not mean we have "evolved" in some miraculous way.

Talking about "peaceful Europe"? Well look again... Kosovo, Yugoslavia, right now Ukraine they are very real and very close conflicts of now and recent past. People there were/are scared and massacred without a proper means of response or defence. If the military is working for an oppressive regime if you went through at least a basic military training you know what to do under fire you won't chicken you won't run out in the open for a sniper to smoke you out of existence, but you will seek cover and might even rescue some people in the process.

So yeah by having a compulsory military training you might actually use that training to free yourself and your countrymen from an oppressive regime.
Is it still such a bad idea?
I dunno how about you but I think spending two years learning how warfare works is better for me than getting a 7.62 bullet from 200 meters away just because I was running in the open instead of taking cover.
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Tumbles

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 06:33:28 PM »
The military teaches respect and discipline in the same way that pottery classes teach the importance of pottery. Pottery classes should be mandatory.

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 04:44:36 AM »
Lance said stuff.

If your biggest points in arguing for mandatory service are firearm safety and basic military training, then I guess the importance of military service really depends on where you are in the world and how likely it is your country will become an instant war zone.

I don't believe this is likely to happen in any stable and developed country. I can only speak from my perspective in Australia, but it still doesn't seem worthwhile at all.
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Question Mark

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 05:26:08 AM »
This thread is so riddled with nationalism, IR realism, and fear-mongering (the omnipresent invisible enemy) it's actually difficult to take seriously.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 05:44:11 AM by Question Math »

Kyo

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 06:01:39 AM »
This thread is so riddled with nationalism, IR realism, and fear-mongering (the omnipresent invisible enemy) it's actually difficult to take seriously.
Good to know I'm not the only one thinking this.

Even two thousand years ago people were wise enough to say "ubi bene, ibi patria".

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2014, 10:52:52 AM »
To be honest, most of the reasons given for mandatory military service here don't justify it:
 
  • Point One - Common Sense: For a start quite a bit of gun safety is common sense and doesn't require military service to be learnt - seriously what type of idiot keeps guns in the reach of children/teenagers or points a loaded gun at someone they don't intend on shooting?
  • Point Two - Moral Values: In the case of discipline and respect these values can be taught elsewhere.
  • Point Three - Nationalism: Nationalism isn't necessarily a good thing.
  • Point Four - Snipers: In most cases nobody is shooting 7.62 bullets at you down a high-street unless you are already in the military which kind of negates the point of this argument; either way you would have had to have already undergone basic training to get in this situation and the mandatory service would not have taught you anything different. In the case of you being a civilian in this scenario please see the extension of Point One: Common Sense below.
  • Point Five - Damn Commies: Contrary to popular believe, the Commies* probably aren't just outside the border.**


* "Commies" may be replaced with a different common enemy relevant to your country if the "Commies" aren't.
** An exception to this would be countries in a situation where war is a real possibility. See below.

The only reason that only really holds up is mandatory military service is useful in case you have to do military service, because in some countries there is a reasonable threat of war and would make the act conscription a bit smoother and easier.


Also the use of this reason to justify anything needs to be banned:
Quote
So yeah by having a compulsory military training you might actually use that training to free yourself and your countrymen from an oppressive regime.



Point One - Common Sense Extended: As a civilian don't walk out in front of snipers, seriously what were you expecting to happen?

Note to reader: You should definitely treat this post as if it has been written with the utmost sincerity and should assume to be responded to in the same totally sincere manner.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 03:11:05 PM by The-PurpleOrange »

Just Lance

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 02:59:27 PM »
Take a look at situation in Ukraine. When it started many civilians were shot at and wounded some even killed.
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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2014, 03:20:01 PM »
That was a protest which escalated over the course of a few months and turned violent, it seems like Russia are getting involved too now - though I can speculate why, I don't know the real reason for it. However, I don't see what your point is there.