Author Topic: Should the military service be mandatory?  (Read 20734 times)

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Thunderbird

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2014, 07:59:00 PM »
If you agree that you need to change the command to change the system, the first and most realistic step is to join the system and carry your values with you until you reach a command level.

Which is kinda masochistic, because you will hate everything there.
When you are in a higher position you will still be a lone voice due to that, but chances are you won't even get there, because your morals conflict with your orders too often and the higher ups are more likely to select someone with their views.

It's very difficult to change such stiff hierarchic structures from within.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 08:00:40 PM by Thunderbird »
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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2014, 08:47:19 PM »
If you agree that you need to change the command to change the system, the first and most realistic step is to join the system and carry your values with you until you reach a command level.

Which is kinda masochistic, because you will hate everything there.
When you are in a higher position you will still be a lone voice due to that, but chances are you won't even get there, because your morals conflict with your orders too often and the higher ups are more likely to select someone with their views.

It's very difficult to change such stiff hierarchic structures from within.

I agree with everything you said, but I don't see how it would be any easier from the outside.

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2014, 12:32:30 AM »
Exactly! So, I was in the military for four years, and the one thing I noticed is that people who were any good for the system (that is, people who could create positive change) always left because the system sucked for them. People who were bad for the military (in this situation meaning people who conformed entirely and promised no chance of changing the system for the better) stayed in because the system let them continue being who they were.

Stay in long enough and you gain rank and position. What that means is that the people who are bad for the system always stayed in and gained command power, then propagated those values.

If you agree that you need to change the command to change the system, the first and most realistic step is to join the system and carry your values with you until you reach a command level.
Your proposition rests on the idea that everyone is okay with being in the military except they're holding themselves back due to some aspect that they don't like. That's not true. I, for one, am simply not interested in joining the military and I don't want it chasing me around with some conscription notice
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 01:03:31 AM by Question Math »

Merlandese

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2014, 02:22:02 AM »
Exactly! So, I was in the military for four years, and the one thing I noticed is that people who were any good for the system (that is, people who could create positive change) always left because the system sucked for them. People who were bad for the military (in this situation meaning people who conformed entirely and promised no chance of changing the system for the better) stayed in because the system let them continue being who they were.

Stay in long enough and you gain rank and position. What that means is that the people who are bad for the system always stayed in and gained command power, then propagated those values.

If you agree that you need to change the command to change the system, the first and most realistic step is to join the system and carry your values with you until you reach a command level.
Your proposition rests on the idea that everyone is okay with being in the military except they're holding themselves back due to some aspect that they don't like. That's not true. I, for one, am simply not interested in joining the military and I don't want it chasing me around with some conscription notice

No, my proposition rests on the idea that if did join the military, the clashing of beliefs about the military would help to reshape it. An example is that we've recently repealed the Don't Ask, Don't Tell act where you were allowed to be gay in the armed forces so long as nobody knew about it. So many homosexuals and homosexual sympathizers rose to power within the armed forces through the years that keeping that shitty rule for tradition's sake was completely unreasonable.

What that shows is that if the military hates, say, black people, then forcibly recruits black people into its system, it has no choice but to change into a body that loves black people because that is what it is made of. Likewise, (and again, hypothetically), if you and others have Value X and you're placed into a community where you can eventually establish power, it follows that you can make Value X a value of that community.

That said, I hated the military and left, rather than stayed to change shit. XD

Thunderbird

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2014, 11:24:06 AM »
What that shows is that if the military hates, say, black people, then forcibly recruits black people into its system, it has no choice but to change into a body that loves black people because that is what it is made of. Likewise, (and again, hypothetically), if you and others have Value X and you're placed into a community where you can eventually establish power, it follows that you can make Value X a value of that community.

That said, I hated the military and left, rather than stayed to change shit. XD

You cannot really hide the colour of your skin, those people would just have a very bad time in there and chances of them changing the system within are slim to none (because if all people hate them, they will not give them higher up ranks in there).

Congratulation, you would have created a sort of torture chamber in which you force everyone to go.
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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2014, 01:58:15 PM »
No, my proposition rests on the idea that if did join the military, the clashing of beliefs about the military would help to reshape it. An example is that we've recently repealed the Don't Ask, Don't Tell act where you were allowed to be gay in the armed forces so long as nobody knew about it. So many homosexuals and homosexual sympathizers rose to power within the armed forces through the years that keeping that shitty rule for tradition's sake was completely unreasonable.

What that shows is that if the military hates, say, black people, then forcibly recruits black people into its system, it has no choice but to change into a body that loves black people because that is what it is made of. Likewise, (and again, hypothetically), if you and others have Value X and you're placed into a community where you can eventually establish power, it follows that you can make Value X a value of that community.

That said, I hated the military and left, rather than stayed to change shit. XD
The burden should be on those who are wrong, not those are wronged. :-\

Merlandese

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2014, 07:09:58 PM »
No, my proposition rests on the idea that if did join the military, the clashing of beliefs about the military would help to reshape it. An example is that we've recently repealed the Don't Ask, Don't Tell act where you were allowed to be gay in the armed forces so long as nobody knew about it. So many homosexuals and homosexual sympathizers rose to power within the armed forces through the years that keeping that shitty rule for tradition's sake was completely unreasonable.

What that shows is that if the military hates, say, black people, then forcibly recruits black people into its system, it has no choice but to change into a body that loves black people because that is what it is made of. Likewise, (and again, hypothetically), if you and others have Value X and you're placed into a community where you can eventually establish power, it follows that you can make Value X a value of that community.

That said, I hated the military and left, rather than stayed to change shit. XD
The burden should be on those who are wrong, not those are wronged. :-\

The aggressor makes the rules.

Thunderbird

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2014, 09:09:53 AM »
The aggressor makes the rules.

Luckily this isn't always true or humanity would be in an even worse state than it is now.
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Just Lance

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2014, 10:44:51 AM »
Or the Ukraine Crisis would already be over....
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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2014, 08:19:53 PM »
I'm definitely not for mandatory military service for most of the reasons you've all mentioned. But I do think there's the opposite side of the coin in here.

On the Human Freedoms side (the stronger of the sides for me), mandatory military service is harsh and cruel. On the opposite side of that would military/national ethics. I think having everyone join the military would A) serve as valuable military education, which would enlighten the entire nation on what the system is, how it works, and why they need it (or not), and B) place every single type of person into a position in which they could actively express their values on the system (internal activism rather than external).

I think with a gun to my head I'd say "no" to mandatory service every time, but there's definitely potential benefits in allowing such a prominent national system to not be entirely segregated from more than half of the nation.

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2014, 04:52:24 AM »
Or the Ukraine Crisis would already be over....
I would like you to expand on this.

I'm definitely not for mandatory military service for most of the reasons you've all mentioned. But I do think there's the opposite side of the coin in here.

On the Human Freedoms side (the stronger of the sides for me), mandatory military service is harsh and cruel. On the opposite side of that would military/national ethics. I think having everyone join the military would A) serve as valuable military education, which would enlighten the entire nation on what the system is, how it works, and why they need it (or not), and B) place every single type of person into a position in which they could actively express their values on the system (internal activism rather than external).

I think with a gun to my head I'd say "no" to mandatory service every time, but there's definitely potential benefits in allowing such a prominent national system to not be entirely segregated from more than half of the nation.
There is no need to join a system to have the right to effectively scrutinize it. If that was the case, then those who haven't gotten into a government post wouldn't have the right to criticize who they elected. Military education does have its benefits, but that doesn't really justify shoving everyone through it unless the state in question has quite an unfriendly neighbor (as in the case of South Korea and Israel). And it's not really segregation if people are free to join it should they wish.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 06:29:17 AM by Question Math »

Just Lance

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2014, 07:34:32 AM »
If the aggressor would really make rules then Ukraine crisis about Crimea would be already over.

So what is this crisis about? Well Russia claims that Crimea itself an autonomous region of Ukraine but still a part of Ukraine is joining Russian federation after ex-president of Ukraine Yanukovych fled to Russia because of demonstrations and public unrest which claimed at least 88 lives. The government then decides to have a new election, but  Yanukovych appear on TV and claims he still is the elected president. So "western world"supports the new Kiev government while Russians support  Yanukovych. Yanukovych also signed an agreement and "invited" Russian forces to Crimea... But from the standpoint of the new Ukraine government that act is illegal.

The problem also is that Russia violates many treaties in this "conflict" including and not limited to:
Geneva conventions Article 47 Mercenaries:
2. A mercenary is any person who:
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
Russia still denies they have deployed armed forces in Crimea before certain date but it is not true.

1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances:
According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:

1) Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders. (violated)
2) Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine. (Violated)
3) Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics. (I am not sure about this one, but might be)
4) Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
5) Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6) Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.

Russians also broke their own constitutions (namely paragraph 102d: The jurisdiction of the Federation Council shall include: d) making decisions on the possibility of the use of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation outside the territory of the Russian Federation.) The use of Russian forces was approved by the council on the 1st of this month. The "Polite people" [read Russian Armed Forces in Crimea without any form of ID patches or other markers than their Russian military gear] started to appear on 25th last month.

The Alma Ata Declaration of December 1991, which consigned the Soviet Union to history,
The 1997 agreement on the stationing of the Black Sea fleet in Crimean ports.
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Thunderbird

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2014, 07:59:02 AM »
I'm definitely not for mandatory military service for most of the reasons you've all mentioned. But I do think there's the opposite side of the coin in here.

Nearly everything has an opposite side of the coin.
The important question is: Do those positive things outweight the negative ones?
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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2014, 08:36:52 AM »
snip
Treaty-wise, that's sound but have you seen the elephant in the room?

Spoiler: show
Russia isn't afraid nor that it cares.


Aggressive actions against a clearly defiant someone-you-dont-just-push-around state is the last thing anyone wants to do to resolve the situation. This would end the Crimean crisis, granted, because the name would have to be changed to accommodate whatever larger-scale conflict it would evolve to.

Again:
You don't defuse a tense situation by escalating it.


Just Lance

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Re: Should the military service be mandatory?
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2014, 11:33:12 AM »
As much as I amuse myself with a thought of Russia crumbling once again it is no laughing matter... Russia may not care now but well see if it will stand this. Today warfare is not decided just by military might but also by economics and Russia doesn't have Warsaw pact countries to order to support it's economy.
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