Author Topic: Ending Plothole  (Read 11370 times)

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Unimaginative Username

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2014, 06:39:16 PM »
Hey Bill. The issue that's causing the issue you're having is stemmed from that last assumption you posted, though I don't blame you as that's what the game visually showed at one point. I'm on a plane at the moment (10 hour ride, ahhh), but I'll try to elaborate when I settle down later this weekend :)

So... how's the elaboration going?  ;)

Kyo

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2014, 04:40:00 AM »
Hey Bill. The issue that's causing the issue you're having is stemmed from that last assumption you posted, though I don't blame you as that's what the game visually showed at one point. I'm on a plane at the moment (10 hour ride, ahhh), but I'll try to elaborate when I settle down later this weekend :)

So... how's the elaboration going?  ;)
Prepare for a long, nine-months-worth-of-text post.

Chauncelle

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2014, 02:57:43 AM »
Er isn't it the other way around? Not a plot hole - more like something that's important to the plot ending. Johnny and River not meeting again gave Johnny a reason to go to the moon. You know, so Johnny would want to see River again? So they can meet up on the moon? And Niel and Eva can finish their job?

From what I understand, when Eva saved Joey I assumed that Johnny didn't take any beta blockers and his lost memories are now open to him/remembers his meeting with River. I mean, why would Eva need to "move" River away from Johnny's high school memories? Isn't it so Johnny will keep on wanting to go to the moon (want to see River again)?

Meh I'm simple minded so I can only process simple things. I might be missing something here though...

Abrom

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2014, 08:12:48 PM »
Chauncelle - Lol, your post amuses me. It's like you agree with what everyone's saying, but then you pretty much post the same thing as billbaggins. Alright, let me give a jab at trying to make this clear.
Eva and Neil never changed anything prior to John's beta-blocked memories. They were able to see into those memories, but nothing was changed in them, and John still can't remember that stage of his life. The earliest change to his memories that we're shown is at the point when John was supposed to meet with River a second time and ask her out on a date. Instead of meeting River again, it was replaced with John hanging out with Joey and Nick. I imagine that this fake Joey memory was inserted at the earliest point past the beta-block stage for John to accept it as real and for it to even get to this teenage stage. But again, nothing was changed in the beta-blocked stage. Now, if you ask 'Well, what about the carnival, what about meeting River there?' Well, in his real memories, he never went back to that spot in his young years to meet her, and apparently that part stayed true in his new memories as well. Did River go back to that spot? Yeah, I'm pretty sure she did, but we don't really know and it's irrelevant; it's John's memories, and if John wasn't there, then we can't see it. Also, Eva and Neil must have tampered with John's taste to match what it was prior to the beta-blockers, since John now doesn't like pickled olives or animorphs (As for why he acquired those tastes after Joey's death, I have two ideas - 1. He either subconsciously convinced himself that he liked them as a homage to Joey, or 2. His mother convinced him that he liked them because she wanted him to be Joey).
So, while John grows up happily with his brother, his longing to go to the moon intensifies, since, subconsciously, that's where he'll meet River again. Now, of course, in John's mind, going to moon without River would have no meaning. That's why John's mind reintroduces River in NASA (he has plenty of old memories to throw together the perfect River). Another thing that was important to John was his For River/To The Moon song that he made. But, again, in his mind, this song has no meaning without River, so she had to be there when he played it. And, in this case, instead of the song acting as a 'goodbye' to River (and causing John some discomfort as we saw him try to play it after River's death), like it did in the real world, it's more of an icebreaker to start off a relationship with River in these new memories. They fall in love, fly to the moon together, and thus ends the epic story. Going to the moon = falling in love with River.
River: *Drops hacky sack*
River: "Can you throw this is as far as where Anya's at?"
John: "I can try."
John: "(Now I'll amaze her with my feat of strength.)"
John: *Throws hacky sack into ocean*
River: *Runs to cliff edge*
John: "River! Stop looking at my awesome throw and get away from that ledge!"
River: *Backs into John and silently sits down*
John: "(...Nailed it.)"

Erenussocrates

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 06:04:10 AM »
I just finished TTM yesterday and of course cried for a good duration of it.

Today, I was thinking about the story and came to realize something.

If Eva went back and saved Joey, why did Johnny never go back to the carnival to see River?

Since there was no traumatic death of Joey, Johnny would never have been given beta blockers to lose his memories.  Yet it seems as though he was given them;  He never went back for River at the carnival the next year, he has no recollection of River in school,  and only seems to want to go to the moon for his own sake and not to see River.  Unless I'm misunderstanding everything, it seems plotholeish.

I don't see how the Beta blockers are supposed to have affected the new memories Johnny remakes when Joey is saved.

Well, when eva moved river, she apparently moved her way before highschool, and right after their first meeting, to be exact I guess.
Videogame developers are not gods that anyone should worship. I hereby decide that is my top existential reason to prove that horrible, horrible misconception, because that is becoming annoyingly rampant in every corner of the internet.  They can deserve critism, or thrashing even. It doesn't even need to be constructive critism. And even if you are a free game developer doesn't mean community is your personal ego farm.

Abrom

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2014, 10:10:39 AM »
This part of the story leaves a lot to the viewer's imagination. I THINKING that you might be right, and River was never even involved in John's highschool memories. Afterall, if John had met her in highschool, and then she suddenly disappeared, I think that he might have devoted his life to tracking her down, instead of following his subconscious goal of meeting her on the moon.
River: *Drops hacky sack*
River: "Can you throw this is as far as where Anya's at?"
John: "I can try."
John: "(Now I'll amaze her with my feat of strength.)"
John: *Throws hacky sack into ocean*
River: *Runs to cliff edge*
John: "River! Stop looking at my awesome throw and get away from that ledge!"
River: *Backs into John and silently sits down*
John: "(...Nailed it.)"

Avianna

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2015, 01:01:45 AM »
I read so many responses, my ideas of how this works might flow into some other people's ideas.

I think Eva went back in time to save Joey. From there on out, she tried to hide River away from Johnny as a way to amp up his desire to go to the moon. I say this because when Johnny goes to ask River out, he obviously knows who she is, but she eludes him again because Eva figures out a way to hide her away. So the idea could be that she's always there in his memories of school and such, but he never has the life changing events with her because Eva hides her away. Because its not the right time for them to meet yet in his memories. He still needs that push to want to truly "Meet again at the Moon."

That's just my take on it, complete with examples used in game (ie her hiding away River from the stairs scene but him still having that memory)

Abrom

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2015, 09:57:39 AM »
I read so many responses, my ideas of how this works might flow into some other people's ideas.

I think Eva went back in time to save Joey. From there on out, she tried to hide River away from Johnny as a way to amp up his desire to go to the moon. I say this because when Johnny goes to ask River out, he obviously knows who she is, but she eludes him again because Eva figures out a way to hide her away. So the idea could be that she's always there in his memories of school and such, but he never has the life changing events with her because Eva hides her away. Because its not the right time for them to meet yet in his memories. He still needs that push to want to truly "Meet again at the Moon."

That's just my take on it, complete with examples used in game (ie her hiding away River from the stairs scene but him still having that memory)
I don't think that memory was actually still there, and was instead replaced with John walking down those same stairs with Nick and Joey.
River: *Drops hacky sack*
River: "Can you throw this is as far as where Anya's at?"
John: "I can try."
John: "(Now I'll amaze her with my feat of strength.)"
John: *Throws hacky sack into ocean*
River: *Runs to cliff edge*
John: "River! Stop looking at my awesome throw and get away from that ledge!"
River: *Backs into John and silently sits down*
John: "(...Nailed it.)"

Avianna

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2015, 04:04:59 AM »
Nah. It was the first memory Eva changed. Them walking down the stairs really has nothing to do with that particular memory. That's why they show her using other random people in his memories pushing River away. That scene would not be included in the game if they didn't mean it to show that Eva pushed River out of memories that she needed to be out of to push his desire to go to the moon.

GingerCorslette

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2015, 09:17:43 AM »
Wait... what?  To those who are still confused, this is the whole premise of To the Moon:

1.  The game shows Johnny's original memories backwards (old to young), up to the constellation/platypus-giving scene.  Then, halt!
2.  Eva 'deletes' River but of course, let's assume what really happened: she 'just moved her'.
3.  Eva also saves Joey (visualising a door and saying 'There's one last thing I need to do...').
4.  Starting from the scene where Johnny, Nick, and Joey descend the stairs, the game then plays forwards what could've been Johnny's life with the modifications in #2-3.

During this 'second' life, Johnny and River's first meeting is at NASA.  Johnny going to the carnival would be pointless and irrelevant as River wouldn't be there.

That's it.  No plothole.

Avianna

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2015, 03:33:18 PM »
Hrm. Then what gives him the motivation to go to the Moon in the '2nd Life' if he didn't meet her at the carnival when she was young?

Abrom

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2015, 07:48:10 PM »
Quote
Nah. It was the first memory Eva changed.
I don't think that's accurate, because I'd like to believe that Joey existed in John's memories prior to that stairs scene. I think the reason it showed River getting taken away from that scene in particular is two fold - 1. It was a critical point that established the relationship between John and River, and 2. It's to show that it's that memory in particular that gets replaced with John walking with Joey and Nick.

Quote
Hrm. Then what gives him the motivation to go to the Moon in the '2nd Life' if he didn't meet her at the carnival when she was young?
Like I said before, I don't think anything was changed in John's beta-blocked memories. He still met River at the carnival, and he still wants to go to the moon; John just consciously doesn't know that River is the actual reason behind it, but subconsciously, he does. That's why River was reintroduced to him at NASA. It was the only way for him to accomplish his wish of going to the moon, and for his wish to still have meaning.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 07:49:47 PM by Abrom »
River: *Drops hacky sack*
River: "Can you throw this is as far as where Anya's at?"
John: "I can try."
John: "(Now I'll amaze her with my feat of strength.)"
John: *Throws hacky sack into ocean*
River: *Runs to cliff edge*
John: "River! Stop looking at my awesome throw and get away from that ledge!"
River: *Backs into John and silently sits down*
John: "(...Nailed it.)"

GingerCorslette

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2015, 08:06:37 PM »
Okay, this should sort you out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwWnyzGk-84

the8thark

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2015, 12:32:23 AM »
My understanding of it all is this - feel free to disagree with this:

Johnny never actually goes to NASA.  And is never an astronaut.  His actual life is never changed or altered.  Only his perception of it is, ie his memories.  That's why it's so hard/impossible to deal with anything before the beta blockers.  Joey died, Johnny was given the beta blockers.  That all happened in reality.  And reality is not being changed here, only Johnny's perception of it (ie his past) is altered.

His life long desire for the moon was always there.  But in his current life he could never act upon it.  So the doctors went back to a time even before the beta blockers.  His memories are still there, just unable to be accessed by Johnny because of the blockers.  So those earlier memories are changed.  And thus Johnny's later memories change too as a result.  Even though Johnny can only remember past the blockers, what is there before the blockers affects what he can remember past the blockers. 

Along with the later not meeting up with River at school, his memories were artificially changed from a desire to help River (who certainly had autism or similar) and wanting to care for her, forever, to putting more effort into his own life and thus becoming the astronaut, in his new memories (or version of reality).  And in this new version of memories, River did not have Johnny to take care of her so she even though still not totally normal was very bright and could still make it into NASA as well.

In short all the doctors did was take edit Johnny's memories so he believes his desire for the Moon was never about caring for River and all about himself reaching for the Moon.  The reality never changed, he's still dying, he never went to the Moon.  But . . . the difference is his memories are slightly altered and this slight alteration makes all the memories of his life change.  He now has memories of something he was not.  A life he wished he had but never was able to have.

But there's more . . .

I believe the 1st Minisode protest outside the Tech Lab was about the public realising that you're changing a person's memories of their life away from reality and to what alternate life they wished they had lived instead.  So basically their last memory of their life was not real, but a happy lie so they can smile at the end before they pass on.  And a portion of the public would call this immoral, so they protested outside the Tech Lab.  Also the 2 doc's ashing each other about the morality of this whole issue to me means they are ok with doing it, as it's their job and a high paying one, but deep down inside I think both of them do not know what to think.  They are making someone happy but they are altering their last memories of their real lives.  And both Docs do not know if they agree or disagree with the this on moral grounds.

I have a question to you all . . .

Eva found his medications in the car near the end of the story and he tried to deny their existence.  What was that all about?  Is the effects of going into someone else's head affecting him?  Or is there more to it than that?  This little tid bit important to the story?  I think it just might be, but I never worked out why it's there in the first place and what significance it has.

And finally . . .

We have the developer's comments on the game.  But I think just like a song or any other piece of art, two people can view the same piece of art and get two totally different but plausible experiences from it.  And I feel this game is the same.  All of our opinions on the game, even if they differ to the developers' opinions are not wrong.  it's just how we experienced the game and what we thought about it when we played it.

As a form of entertainment (as this is) there is no real truth to it.  The truth is whatever we get out of it.  And because we are all unique people, we will all get something different out of this game.  And it will affect us each in different ways.  And that's why art can be so powerful, as you'll never know how your art work will affect or inspire someone else.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 12:41:01 AM by the8thark »

Abrom

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Re: Ending Plothole
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2015, 03:58:47 PM »
I would have to disagree with you about one thing in particular, and that is that Eva and Neil never changed John's motivation for wanting to go to the moon. The motivation, in reality and in the new fake memories, was always River. If the doctors could change the motivation behind John's wish, then they never would have had to take River out of his memories. River was really the only reason he wanted to go to the moon, simply because they said that's where they would meet up if they ever lost each other.
Anyways, as far as theories about Neil and his painkillers go, there's a topic for that - http://freebirdgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=4637.15
River: *Drops hacky sack*
River: "Can you throw this is as far as where Anya's at?"
John: "I can try."
John: "(Now I'll amaze her with my feat of strength.)"
John: *Throws hacky sack into ocean*
River: *Runs to cliff edge*
John: "River! Stop looking at my awesome throw and get away from that ledge!"
River: *Backs into John and silently sits down*
John: "(...Nailed it.)"