Author Topic: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?  (Read 5347 times)

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TKano

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Re: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 04:51:22 AM »
Unfortunately, that's where you're wrong.

I don't want this to boil into anything, so before I explain, all just debate yes? No rage.
Cool? ???
Cool  :)

Anyway, Johnny did NOT remember the stargazing moment. 2 pieces of evidence prove this.

1) Johnny did NOT return to that spot every year for the carnival, despite promising to do so.

2) Remember, Johnny said that they'd regroup on the moon if they forgot.

Quote
River: But what  if you forget... or get lost?
John: Then we can always regroup on the moon, silly! Right on the rabbit's tummy!

You see, he didn't remember their meeting, but his subconscious memory told him that something, SOMETHING in his past made him want to go to the moon. He didn't know what, but something made him want to. That something was the meeting with River.

To prove that proof (lol), Remember that John as an old man still wanted to go to the moon, even though HE didn't remember the meeting at all.

Quote
Dr Watts: Why do you want to go there?
John: I don't know... I'm sorry, I really don't know. I just... do.

The real reason was the memory of River's meeting, which he couldn't remember, BUT it affected his subconscious memory, rather than his concious one.


q

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Re: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 04:58:11 AM »
In that case... what did cause John forget that meeting? He didn't take betablockers in the new set of memories because Joey didn't die.

And the question was, if they forgot or get lost... we don't exactly know why they didn't meet again the next year. Maybe Joey just didn't want to go and since he always got what he wanted... this doesn't mean that John forgot that moment at all.

Kyo

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Re: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 05:15:22 AM »
In that case... what did cause John forget that meeting? He didn't take betablockers in the new set of memories because Joey didn't die.
The damage caused by betablockers is a physical condition. Altering memories wouldn't heal your broken leg, and it doesn't change the fact, that his memories from before taking betablockers are erased/unclear.

q

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Re: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2014, 05:27:04 AM »
Altering memories wouldn't heal your broken leg

The game is about changing memories, not reality. This argument isn't valid.

If John had a broken leg in his real life... why would that even matter?

and it doesn't change the fact, that his memories from before taking betablockers are erased/unclear.

Just to John. They are not erased and they are very clear to Eva/Neil and the machine. That's all that matters.

Kyo

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Re: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2014, 07:22:14 AM »
That's right. He doesn't have a broken leg, but he does have a broken brain, which can't be healed through memory alteration.
His memories are kind of erased for his consciousness. They're hidden from him behind a curtain, so to speak. And it's a physical curtain at that. Only his subconsciousness can see through it and bring back some forgotten strong feelings, like the need to go to the Moon.
Eva and Neil can only alter memories. If they were to recover them, they'd need to create 'em from the scratch and put them on the other side of said "curtain", which they can't do. Otherwise they would just create a memory of him going to the Moon somewhere in the past, but the consistency of his memories would be swayed.

At least that's how I understand the matter.

q

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Re: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2014, 07:42:38 AM »
But that was your argument. Assuming in his real life he had a broken leg, by your reasoning he must have had a broken leg in his new memories. But that's not logical.

You say that John forgot the stargazing moment. Why? Because this happened in his real life? In his real life he also forgot his brother. But there's no indicator in the game that John just woke up one morning who that boy is, that slept in his room.

His "new life" must still be logic and consistent. Eva and Neil said that. It doesn't work without causality. Without reason there can be no effect. If John forgot River (effect), then what was the reason? And that reason needs to be in his "new life" and it can't be betablockers, because there was no need to take them.

Or... just write a timeline of Johns new set of memories. What happened when and why? ;)

Eva says that the memories were fuzzily unlinked, not broken, erased, destroyed or whatsoever. They were "hidden". Like your memories are a hard drive of raw data. The Sigmund Corp machine reads those raw data and copies them into its own hard drive. Eva and Neil then look through this data and after a while they found a file, that's password protected. They can't just read it. So they crack the password and see what's inside. So now they have all the data available, rewrite some stuff from here and there, so that John's "new life" takes the intended way with logic/causality. And then they copy those manipulated files back to John's hard drive.




TKano

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Re: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2014, 10:31:49 AM »
Q, I'm not sure where you're reading some of our argument, to be honest. Let me correct the parts you got wrong. PLEASE remember, we're all good. No rage, yeah? :DDD

You say that John forgot the stargazing moment. Why? Because this happened in his real life? In his real life he also forgot his brother. But there's no indicator in the game that John just woke up one morning who that boy is, that slept in his room.

No.

We say that Eva and Neil left the stargazing fuzzily unlinked, therefore it isn't remembered.

HOWEVER, Joey was brought back by Eva. How this was done is unclear: The easiest explanation is that she moved Joey into John's earliest accessible memory, like a copy and paste.

I think I know where some of your confusion is coming from. Remember that, although BOTH memories are unlinked, they can be tampered with separately, they are two different memories.

So that's all: Eva brought back Joey, possible by moving him into the future, so John remains unknowing of the incident... and the first meeting with River.

TKano

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Re: Waaait a second... how does that make sense?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2014, 10:32:45 AM »
We're getting a little off topic, so I'm gonna lock this thread. If you wanna continue this discussion, open another thread. Thanks :D