Author Topic: Am i the only one..  (Read 9388 times)

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Merlandese

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2012, 02:30:14 PM »
I like that it's promoting so much thought. :)

Judedeath

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 09:02:31 PM »
-River is dead. Nothing can be changed about it.

It's almost like I've read that somewhere before...


Also Nora should totally be a patient in a future game.
Old River was as dead as a doornail, this must be distinctly understood or nothing wonderful can come of the story I am about to relate.

Ferdk

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 11:31:09 PM »
I was actually about to paraphrase your sig when I wrote that :P

And about Nora, you mean like a 'prequel' game? I'd be down for that...
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Merlandese

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 11:35:23 PM »
I wish Kan had added more nods to the Nora case in-game. It'd be interesting to see people speculate about that case.

r3kan

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2012, 04:52:55 AM »
Yeah I understand what you say. But I don't know if there was much left to do sans re-writing the whole game.

Given the premise of the game, Eva's decision is pretty much perfectly consistent. To be honest I don't like when games/movies portray characters in situations that are familiar to them but then react all altruistic because "its the one story we're seeing". For example (in this game) if they would've gone against their job and not fulfill Johnny's wish because they think he'd rather off with his memories, then that would've pissed me off because it doesn't make sense. Why now? they've been doing the job for a while, surely they've been in a similar situation before. Then why now play the hero card? It doesn't make sense and sadly it is often used in movies and games.

So if we accept that premise (else the game needs a complete re-write), then they find out the only way to send Johnny to the moon is to erase River (so he goes 'reunite' with her there). From there the only possible scenarios were:

-delete River, make Johnny go to the moon and die even more messed up than he was.
-'postpone' his meeting with River so he goes to the moon and hopefully meets her afterwards.

The first one would've made sense, but its too messed up. I would've accepted it because I don't have a problem with the premise (I actually like stories that aren't all happy, but deal with real issues, like when there's no right answer to something) but obviously most people would rage at it.
So the next best thing is the second option, in which Eva goes a bit out of character to actually 'care' about what happens to River, but without completely destroying the premise. So we get a less depressing ending (as far as the premise allows) that still makes sense. It was a good choice, in my opinion.

To sum up, if you look at the things that make the ending kind of a downer, my point is even clearer:

-River is dead. Nothing can be changed about it.
-The memory changing is just a happy last thought, that doesn't change anything really.
-The people involved are in it to fulfill the wish as it was represented in a contract. That is, literally. They don't have a personal interest to take action against the contract in the best interest of the client.

I think these 3 points is what usually bother most people (who have a problem with it), and the way I just represented them, makes it clear it is a problem with the premise. All of this is how the game is portrayed from the very beginning, its not something brought up at the ending.

Just think about it, if they would go against their job because they think they know better, why Johnny? why make it up to Johnny and not Nora? or any other client? It is clear they've been doing their job properly enough to not get fired up until now. The more I think about it the more problems I have with Watts actually, he should've just acted casually because he's used to these situations. But maybe he's always like this and Eva is saving him from getting fired by being the one who takes the right decisions.

By the way, suffice to say this is just my opinion, you're free to disagree and share your thoughts on it. I don't want to sound as if I'm always right or anything like that, I just tend to over-analize things ^^

i dont have anything against characters dying at all. id be sad but no i dont go around complaining about it. i usually dont have any problems with a not-so-happy ending or even a tragic one. its just that i dont like the way this one is executed. oh and i will never want a rewrite on any story no matter how much i didnt like it. if that happens (even if its in my favor), ill raise hell.

anyway my arguments were based on the fact that they ripped away the memories of river to fulfill the wish, that is i did not know the memories of river came back at the very end(even though that part was so poorly executed), so technically i got nothing much to complain now. however i do find your third point " They don't have a personal interest to take action against the contract in the best interest of the client." interesting. im pretty sure you're assuming that the doctors are completely emotionally dead and people who took the job in the first place were only interested in the money. are you really saying that they took on a job that dedicates themselves to fulfill the client's last wish, they took on that only for cash and no feelings involved? we're talking about a job thats difficult to get, probably on par with being an astronaut.
this is a baseless assumption but 'to make people happy' is probably the motivation of the doctors to climb up to where they are in their early lives. if i had to compare their job to a real life job, id say a war/famine journalist(except on a more obvious scale). those journalist do good by spreading the awareness of such war/famine going on, only sometimes taking that picture means you're leaving a person for dead. it is an ethical thing to do, they get paid for it but its raise a lot of debates. ill be on the moral side on either case im sure.

Tumbles

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2012, 06:30:51 AM »
I wish Kan had added more nods to the Nora case in-game. It'd be interesting to see people speculate about that case.

Absolutely! :o I was truly curious, but it was only brought up once. :reivsweat:

Spoiler: show


                                         

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Ruben

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2012, 07:41:18 AM »
I wish Kan had added more nods to the Nora case in-game. It'd be interesting to see people speculate about that case.


If it was such a pain, I guess Alistair was involved... Poor guy, that Alistair.

Tumbles

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2012, 08:06:02 AM »
WORSE THAN THE ROADKILL!!

Spoiler: show


                                         

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r3kan

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2012, 09:26:25 AM »
nothing beats the road kill, he got ran over, scorned at, bits of flesh got cut off and still left on the road. that poor thing D:

contingency40

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2012, 07:05:30 AM »
*spoilers*
...didnt like the ending?
now dont get me wrong. I love this game, the music is top notch, character development is excellent and the story (up until the ending) is just heart wrenching. That dance in lighthouse part is so sweet i think its forever carved into my memories. Oh and Dr Watts is AWESOME
...but the ending bothered me a lot, the memory alternation just ruined everything for me. Here's my understanding of the story

Before the memory alteration:
River and John made the promise to meet under the moon but John lost his memory in an accident. River was saddened because John did not keep his promise hence she started making orgami rabbits. Somewhere in John's mind, he subconsciously regrets forgetting the promise so he 'wants to go to the moon'.

Now after the memory alternation, we have:
River and John made the promise and never saw each other since. John became an astronaut and not so coincidentally reunite with river. mind you that in the new memories they are pretty much strangers since they only met once. they flew off to the moon... 'fullfillying' the promise

so basically sacraficed all the precious memories he had with River, the proposal, movie, wedding and DANCE IN THE LIGHTHOUSE in order to keep a promise with a stranger. sure hes satisfied but its like when a kid whines because he cant afford to buy a top quality item and then you go up to him and say 'you wouldnt be whining if you have no money to begin with'
im sorry it just really bothers me a lot so i had to let it out

I made an account just to say that this was also on my mind once I'd finished the game.

For me this is a terrible ending for John in his last moments. His real memories of all the times with River aside from their first meeting are erased and replaced with either new ones or duplicate ones. While they do eventually meet up again; the River he loved, married and grew old with no longer existed in his mind. Instead she was replaced by a facsimile most closely approximating what John would have believed River to be had his life taken a different path. That facsimile then replaces the real River in all of his happiest memories; the marriage, the building of the house and so on. Every other real happy memory that isn't compatible with the wish is presumably erased or made inaccessible.

I'm not trying to say I have a problem with the ending at all, in fact I loved the story; I just think it's a terrible tragedy where River dies twice. First in front in John with him powerless to stop her preventable death; and then in his mind as the real River and all of the happy memories with her are stripped away and replaced by a simulation in a machine.

Ferdk

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2012, 11:21:21 AM »
I wonder (and I mean this sincerely, not trying to offend anyone) if you guys who have a problem with that, never thought of it beforehand? The thing that bother all of you who agreed with OP is the obvious conclusion from the very beginning, so I wonder if you guys felt unsettled about it from the very beginning or never put it too much thought until the end of the game.

I ask this sincerely to know how you guys experienced the game. In my case I was aware of what the machine was going to do since the beginning (because it is explained) so I never expected anything else, and I believe the beauty of the game isn't the ending, its the journey. For that it never bothered me that the ending was a downer, it was expected for me, because the premise was pretty clear about it.
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Librarian

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2012, 02:34:49 PM »
I really liked the ending and the most important part was for me that on the shuttle it is River that reaches out for him to take her hand, not the other way around.
Instead of the awkward teenage John asking her out they met while doing something they both deeply cared about in this version of the story and since Rosalene and Watts recovered the memory of their first meeting John should have had access to that as well before he died.
And he had memories of everything else that happened after they went to the moon.

So I didn't think the ending was depressing.

Ferdk

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2012, 02:42:57 PM »
I don't think John had access to the blocked memories, no. If you look at the school years, he was going to approach her like normal (but Eva moved her out of the way). I think what the machine does, since the memories are there (but blocked), it generates the memories according to the new 'deleted' memories, so Joey is alive. But John still has those memories blocked, they played different but he still doesn't remember them. How that makes sense within the memories without taking beta-blockers beats me, but the fact is they're still blocked, as far as I know.

Also, River reaches her hand, but remember this 'River' is made out of Johnny's memories. So you could say he, himself, is reaching out to himself via River :P (as she is just a memory of his). You could interpret it as if that is what he wanted River to do, to reach out for him instead of the other way around.

Sorry it sounds like if I'm trying to make it depressing for you xD
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r3kan

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2012, 01:12:15 AM »
@ferdk
ill say it again. yes i knew something similar might happen once they explained how the machine work. i know the feeling when you have something you regret in live and really want to change. i didnt like the idea of alternating memories but i accepted it. what really ticks me off is how they deleted a client's most precious memories and that only.

thing about blocked memories is its not something you can shut away comepletely. notice how john likes eating pickled olives(whatever joey liked) after the incident. its like you fool your brain into not remembering, but the influences that changed your preferences, personality stays. which is also the reason why in some cases facing your trauma might get your memories back.  I assume the beta blockers is just a catalyst to help john forget. the choice of shutting which memory is still subconciously john's. hence when in the alternate memory where joey didnt die, john had no reason to shut down those memories. why seperating river from the memories saves joey is still beyond me.


@ the 2nd point, good point there, ive never looked at the story that way. :plat: i have a feeling that might relate to the reason why john doesnt want to know river's conditions in the clinic


Ferdk

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Re: Am i the only one..
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2012, 10:47:25 AM »
Yes, I understand your point. But look at it this way:

The way you mean there's no reason for him to take beta-blockers is if the new events would've happened in reality. Since he didn't take beta-blockers there's no reason to block memories. BUT! what the machine does is not reality, so whatever "physical" effect the blockers had, are still there, the machine changes the memories but the  blockers are still blocking a certain part of those memories (even if they're different, lets asume they're stored by date and the blocker blocks a certain period, you change the contents but they're still blocked).

As for why separating River saves Joey, it doesn't. It is implied (or at least, that's how I saw it) that Eva saved Joey while off-screen, as well as later 'moving' River.

Though to be honest, now that you mention it, I don't see what saving Joey has to do with going to the moon, at all. Guess its one of those things they did just to make it less depressing :P (so if he didn't re-meet River, he still had a brother).

I still have my doubts about why Johnny didn't want to read the book. In fact, I don't even know why. Maybe he didn't want to learn how to 'deal' with her because he preferred her to be awkward, and not help her become 'normal' (and killing the purpose of why he approached her). But that would make him still in that mindset of his teens, which would make him still an ass :P
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