Author Topic: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?  (Read 27621 times)

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Ruben

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2010, 09:46:53 AM »
1) how long has this been? could it just be a coincidence/do you usually get sick in this amount of time?
About 6 months. It could be a coincidence, but it also proves that it does not affect my heath in a negative way.

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2) and killing humans for meat is immoral... it's murder! animals are different: they don't have souls (sorry, gettin' into theology again), and they're lower lifeforms.
Humans are in a way animals. Animals are our origin, we were not "created" as humans. And our differences to other species are only gradual. Did you know that we share about 98% of our genes with chimpanzees?

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3) okay, so you're arguing against meat-eating pretty much, right? explain? we're trying to say why we think it's fine, why do you think it's not fine? (besides the fact that we 'don't need it.' there's a lot of stuff that we do that we don't need...)
You can eat as much meat as you like. I just think that many people would think different about this topic if they really tried thought about it without any preconceptions.
Okay, let me briefly explain why I don't eat meat:
- I don't need it
- I don't want to kill animals to 'increase' my pleasure.
- Raising/breeding/selling/transporting animal is really bad for the environment (geenhouse gas etc.)
- The animals suffer
- The grain price is so high because the animals we want to eat must be fed
- Therefore many people in development countries famish because they don't have enough money; also child labour and exploitation of labour is supported by this
- I try to respect every being
- I think that everyone deserves to live
- I think that our society is irrseponsible (and everyone of us, whether or not we know it, just because we live where we live other people suffer from this)

Quote from: Raxus
Animals eat other animals, we are animals, so we can do the same.
Yes, we can. But just because we have the power to do this, it doesn't justify it.

Quote from: Vasha
"we are animals"? wow, that's... a rather lowering view of humanity (thought not the current topic)
Well, Charles Darwin was the first one who thought that humans originate from animals and at that time he arose the anger of many people because that endangered the "special position" of the humans. It is one of our weaknesses that we always want to be 'better' than other beings and I don't think it is a lowering view. Most conflicts arise because we find the differences more important than the things we all have in common. Racism is one example.
But this is a different topic.



Quote from: Stardale
2. Killing animals is needed for human survival.
Not anymore.
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We have to slay some animals to be able to get some fur/other materials that humans need, such as clothes, etc. We are the predators, they are the prey.
Actually, we have the means to create all that stuff in another way. We do not need to kill animals and it is in many cases even cheaper to use other materials. Hence, real leather or fur is normally more expensive than syntetically created material.
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3. There are some nutrients present in animals, but absent in vegetables. Vice versa.
Yeah, but we do have the means to compensate for that without big difficulties.

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2. Each living thing is unique and carries within its own secrets of life. It is unlike any other species. All species are important in the total ecology. If anyone is lost, the whole natural environment changes. Some people see a warning to human beings in the disappearance of many living things.
Indeed. The human was the first and only being that was able to disrupt this balance and harmony. We just don't know what is good for ourselves. Or: Because we are more 'intelligent' and built up a this civilisation, we are not able to see the consequences of what we do anymore.
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5. To satisfy man's basic needs stands the reason. To oversatisfy the self is just being selfish.
Right. This is the sin of our culture.


Stardale

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2010, 10:24:21 AM »
Quote from: Stardale
2. Killing animals is needed for human survival.

Not anymore.


I mean that in general. If we do not have the right to kill animals for human consumption, then man in the prehistoric ages hunting for wolves, mammoths, and other animals, should have died of starvation, thus possibly ending the line for man (or turning us into endangered species: the first ever). Take note that in the Prehistoric ages, especially the Stone Age (Paleolithic, Mesolithic, and Neolithic), methods of farming (traditional farming) has not been discovered, and man has been making tools first out of stone. After finding an alternative to the obsolete stone, which is copper, they made sharper tools from that, the discovery of bronze and iron, not just to make their wares, but also to pierce easier through the skin of animals such as mammoths.

Killing animals is also essential for the prehistoric ages, especially during cold winters. Where else can they get the fur that would protect them from the cold? They will gather leaves and set it on fire?

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We have to slay some animals to be able to get some fur/other materials that humans need, such as clothes, etc. We are the predators, they are the prey.

Actually, we have the means to create all that stuff in another way. We do not need to kill animals and it is in many cases even cheaper to use other materials. Hence, real leather or fur is normally more expensive than synthetically created material.[/quote]

Quality is still over quantity (well, for me at least). What's the use of obsolete materials if, well yes, there could be a lot that suffices the population, but for how long? How are these 'synthetically' made materials helpful to a) the environment b) health

What would happen if the resources used by synthetically made products start to run out, and become like the dodo, and the carrier pigeons?


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3. There are some nutrients present in animals, but absent in vegetables. Vice versa.

Yeah, but we do have the means to compensate for that without big difficulties.[/quote]

At some point, some/majority of the animals contain bad cholesterol, while majority of the plants, such as peanuts, legumes...contain HDL (good cholesterol).

Yet some researches show...
http://www.food.gov.uk/science/research/researchinfo/nutritionresearch/optimalnutrition/n05programme/n05list_bonehealth/n05018/

http://www.powerofmeat.com/Why_eat_meat.htm


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2. Each living thing is unique and carries within its own secrets of life. It is unlike any other species. All species are important in the total ecology. If anyone is lost, the whole natural environment changes. Some people see a warning to human beings in the disappearance of many living things.

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Indeed. The human was the first and only being that was able to disrupt this balance and harmony. We just don't know what is good for ourselves. Or: Because we are more 'intelligent' and built up a this civilisation, we are not able to see the consequences of what we do anymore.


Therefore, awareness is ultimately needed.


Why do I feel that I will love this debate?  :reivsmile: Thanks, Squall!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 12:15:57 AM by Stardale »

Vasha

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2010, 11:08:34 PM »
Humans are in a way animals. Animals are our origin, we were not "created" as humans. And our differences to other species are only gradual. Did you know that we share about 98% of our genes with chimpanzees?
saying that 'animals are our origin,' goes into the topic of religion/beginning-of-the-world, again, though, and i believe in creation, so that doesn't really persuade me at all. and that 2% of DNA makes a heck'a a lot of a difference

Well, Charles Darwin was the first one who thought that humans originate from animals and at that time he arose the anger of many people because that endangered the "special position" of the humans. It is one of our weaknesses that we always want to be 'better' than other beings and I don't think it is a lowering view. Most conflicts arise because we find the differences more important than the things we all have in common. Racism is one example.
But this is a different topic.

actually, he wasn't the first person to say it. some people had had that sort of idea for awhile, but he popularized it/set it into stone more (aligned rules and such)

« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 11:32:30 PM by Vasha »

mepwnn

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2010, 11:23:07 PM »
Well, the topic of evolution is indeed controversial when it comes to religion, as Christians (sorry if I'm using a stereotype) believe that the world began when god created it. But discussion on that is a whole different matter.

And unless you want to eat all the stuff that comes in processed food, or waste huge amounts of money to buy those other products to compensate for eating animals, then you'll have to eat animals in the end. The big difficulty is the issue of money, which, in today's economic crisis, isn't readily available to everyone.

(and Vasha... did you just copy what Squall said for some of your points...)
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Vasha

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2010, 11:33:10 PM »
that's not a stereotype... that's what we believe.

(whoops, i thought i deleted that part -fixes-)

mepwnn

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2010, 11:35:44 PM »
Hm, well the author of our book is Catholic and supports the theory of evolution. but as I said, that's an entirely different topic. *cuts off topic*

(i sure was like WTF)
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Just Lance

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2010, 06:48:31 AM »
My opinion: We're omnivores so our biological structure is made for processing meat AND vegetable (fruit etc. etc.)
So if we were meant to be vegetarians we would have 5 stomachs and harder teeth structure.
We don't have any of it so the rest of it is just cause of human so called intelect.
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mepwnn

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2010, 11:12:23 PM »
Info, for those of you who don't know

Well, technically, our bodies aren't built to digest cellulose, which is present in plants (namely the cell wall, if I remember correctly).

End bio lesson
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Merlandese

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2011, 10:57:25 PM »
Ah, this topic died awhile back, but a guest was looking at it and I couldn't help but jump in head first.

...you're going to be short on protein. Sure, meat is unhealthy if you eat too much, but you need the protein, and it's not really good if you eat it with the processed stuff ...


This is something a vegetarian hears a lot when non-vegetarians justify (or, I'm not sure, defend, I guess) eating meat. I hear it often and it confuses me, because it implies that vegetarians should be dropping like flies all over the place; yet, commonly, this meat-eater mantra is repeated to the very vegetarians who would be dead if that were in any way true. I'd like to mention that tofu, a notoriously vegetarian food (since most non-vegetarians have an aversion to it for some reason) is all soy. Soy is almost all protein.

Humans are in a way animals. Animals are our origin, we were not "created" as humans. And our differences to other species are only gradual. Did you know that we share about 98% of our genes with chimpanzees?

...and that 2% of DNA makes a heck'a a lot of a difference


This is very true. Although, in percent, humans are most similar to chimps, that genetic difference is like the distance between two galaxies.

And unless you want to eat all the stuff that comes in processed food, or waste huge amounts of money to buy those other products to compensate for eating animals, then you'll have to eat animals in the end. The big difficulty is the issue of money, which, in today's economic crisis, isn't readily available to everyone.


A tremendous fallacy. Organic may be expensive, but vegetarianism is not. It just so happens that most vegetarians or vegans are trendy--that is, they follow the liberal fad of not eating meat and adopt the positive values of the diet mindlessly, rather than thoughtfully--and trendy people are willing to spend a lot of money on their trends. The market has adapted, making extremely expensive meat-free foods. But that's only specialty vegetarian; the same way that one can buy either KFC or fillet mignon, a vegetarian may either saute some veggies or purchase Amy's Indian Panak Paneer.

In reality, meat costs more, especially on the economy. Squall has made mention of this already. America, the biggest world consumer and a hedonistic country in general, consumes the majority of the world's meat--far more than is historically acceptable. Enviously, third-world countries wish to consume the same amount, since it is a show of prosperity to consume expensive lifeforms. However, "It takes 16 pounds of grain and 2,500 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of meat. One average meat eater could consume that pound of meat during a meal, while 16 people could have been fed on the grain it takes to produce that pound of meat"

The Discovery Network once showed a portrayal of a fictitious progress of Earth's future and attempted to justify their speculations with current-day facts and economic trends. In one comparison, they noted that, if every country consumed meat as regularly as America, it would take four Earths to supply the resources. Naturally, if meat had less of a demand, vegetables would be more abundant--to the point of higher surplus--which would reduce their price. Saying that non-meat is too expensive for today's economy is not the effect, but a cause.

However, I still see no need to decide what is right and what is wrong as far as killing for food. Should I be dying, any food would suffice to keep me alive. It so happens that people are in a constant state of imminent death, and maybe chewing the fat of others grants enough happiness to appease the melancholy of their doomed lives. It's reasonable. Happiness should come first, even at the cost of the unhappiness of others--because we only have one life. This mentality is selfish, in a way, but completely sane. However, one must keep in mind that it can easily expand and nullify morality (such as the ten commandments) if people think that all of the world's temptations may be taken for pleasure. The phrase "I eat meat because I like it" is completely acceptable, but be reminded that "because I like it," without any other forethought or positive intentions, is what war, theft, rape, murder, pulling pigtails, vandalism, internet bullying, and a plethora of other things are based on. All of that has a simple, selfish pleasure at its core. That, however, is also the American way.

silversun

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2011, 09:34:00 AM »
This may sound callous, but they would have died anyways. I'm against the killing of baby animals, and them being killed/kept cruely, but I have no issue with eating them.

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2011, 01:57:07 PM »
This may sound callous, but they would have died anyways. I'm against the killing of baby animals, and them being killed/kept cruely, but I have no issue with eating them.

Allright. How you wanna make pergamons?
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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 02:12:16 PM »
I don't really care for animals to begin with so eating them is no real issue for me, I actually really enjoy eating them. If I wasn't made to eat meat why is it so much more appealing to me then vegetables and/or fruit?
Also yes we can live without eating meat I suppose. We can also live without cars, planes, computers, cellphones, and all other things the modern age offers us but will I choose to? Probably not, as long as my choices are there I'll go with the one I favor more.
Also I know vegetarians and vegans are different but I recently read about a vegan couple who got life in prison because their baby died of malnutrition...go figure.
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Ruben

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 03:09:39 PM »
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If I wasn't made to eat meat why is it so much more appealing to me then vegetables and/or fruit?
Funny that everyone is always talking about "being made" although actually we (humans, society) are the ones who "make" or form ourselves in many aspects. If I wasn't made to kill other people, we am I able to do so, then?

I don't really care for animals to begin with so eating them is no real issue for me, I actually really enjoy eating them. If I wasn't made to eat meat why is it so much more appealing to me then vegetables and/or fruit?
Also yes we can live without eating meat I suppose. We can also live without cars, planes, computers, cellphones, and all other things the modern age offers us but will I choose to? Probably not, as long as my choices are there I'll go with the one I favor more.
Also I know vegetarians and vegans are different but I recently read about a vegan couple who got life in prison because their baby died of malnutrition...go figure.

Well, babies don't eat much meat to begin with, so the parents obviously made other mistakes.

And you are right, we are doing all kind of stuff that damages our environment, ourselves and others – we just are to lazy to think about it or to stop or don't feel any responsibility at all. Most of the times, we don't even know about the consequences, but that's part of life ever since humanity gained power to disrupt nature to a crucial extend. Not knowing is one problem, but doing something about it is a completely different story.

Our knowledge and sense of responsibility does not suffice to prevent us from destroying everything we cannot see. That's why we might – and probably will – one day destory ourselves, either in a war or because we destory the very environment that keeps us alive.

Well, humans exceeded evolution, and that's the consequence:
1. We do not know about the consequences of our actions that don't affect ourselves directly.
2. If we knew, we still could not feel it.
3. We don't feel responsible for it. Sure most of us know that we all contribute, for instance, to the climate change, but even if we know we are responsible, we do not feel responsible. After all, we are only one person out of more than six billion people – why should we feel responsible.

Our lifestyle is selfish, we don't care about future generations, about the people we're never gonna see (e.g. people in development countries) and ignore inconvenient truths. It's so much easier to live that way, after all. Humans are really paradox beings.

Merlandese

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 04:06:44 PM »
I actually respect Sizzle's honesty on the subject (sans the "then why do I like meat so much" line, which sounds a lot like Fate has a hand in your diet). Rather than use lame "facts" or make up shitty excuses, he's straightforward, and there's something very admirable about it. I have a friend who smokes (I have a lot of friends who smoke, actually) who says: "I wish I wanted to quit. I know it's bad for me and expensive and all of that, but I enjoy it. I just don't want to quit." The honesty is much cooler than getting defensive and using lame excuses, because I can tell sensibility hasn't escaped them.

Ruben

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Re: Do we have the right to kill/eat animals?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 04:17:48 PM »
I actually respect Sizzle's honesty on the subject (sans the "then why do I like meat so much" line, which sounds a lot like Fate has a hand in your diet). Rather than use lame "facts" or make up shitty excuses, he's straightforward, and there's something very admirable about it. I have a friend who smokes (I have a lot of friends who smoke, actually) who says: "I wish I wanted to quit. I know it's bad for me and expensive and all of that, but I enjoy it. I just don't want to quit." The honesty is much cooler than getting defensive and using lame excuses, because I can tell sensibility hasn't escaped them.

Yes, it is indeed. And I totally respect that, too.
I find it much worse if people use lame excuses and lie to themselves.