Author Topic: Gay Marriage  (Read 31924 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Stardale

  • Freebird Linguist-Actor
  • *
  • Tier 7
  • **
  • Posts: 3760
  • Gender: Male
    • Blog
  • Current Mood: happy happy
  • Discord ID: senseigab#6268
  • Twitter: senseigab
Gay Marriage
« on: April 13, 2009, 11:57:45 PM »
This is one hot topic in AM. As I was watching the thread, reading each other people's arguments and comments, I would also like to know what would you guys think about it. Apparently, there are some states in the US (such as Vermont?) in which Gay Marriage has been fully legalized, though I have been hearing some fights here at home by the time they saw the news. Uncle says that it is preposterous, Mom says it is legal indeed.

How about your views?

Mine is just this:

*sigh* Ok... I am actually very torn on this subject.
1. I am not now and never will be anything but heterosexual...(full male)
2. Some of the best friends I have are "gay", lesbian, bi, or bicurious...
3. I see so many people who are truly happier in that lifestyle.
My parents are some of those who believe that it is against God to be gay... that is is morally wrong... but I have searched in the Bible and nowhere does it say that man cannot seek after man or woman after woman... however... it does say that God found man and woman together right. And it was ordered that we procreate.
Man/man and woman/woman marriages being banned WILL NOT bring about more procreation. The same people who want to get married will not decide that since they are not allowed to, they will magically decide they want to seek after the opposite sex. This is not how mankind works.
So... should there be laws against gay marriage? Not by any government... should churches have laws against gay marriage?
Should there be guidelines for homosexual couples? Differences in how they're treated in terms of taxes or anything like that? No.
Do I completely agree with it? NO. I do not see it as a healthy thing for people... but it is not an issue of morality or ethics... not of that particular person, anyway. But I do not agree that it is a good way to spend one's life.
This being said, please keep in mind what I said in No 2.
Thank you.


EDIT: Do not start discrimination here and keep in mind number 2.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 12:01:12 AM by Stardale »

Reives

  • Dr Platplat
  • Director
  • Tier 7
  • ****
  • Posts: 11332
  • Gender: Male
    • Freebird Games
  • Current Mood: happy happy
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2009, 12:17:18 AM »
I'm fairly neutral on this; but since the OP is the only post on it so far, could you expand on why you do not agree that it is a good way to spend one's life? I haven't been exposed to the issue much so I'm not familiar with either sides' main arguments.

Stardale

  • Freebird Linguist-Actor
  • *
  • Tier 7
  • **
  • Posts: 3760
  • Gender: Male
    • Blog
  • Current Mood: happy happy
  • Discord ID: senseigab#6268
  • Twitter: senseigab
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2009, 12:33:07 AM »
I speak fairly in general, thats a thing.

For most of the people I meet, being homosexual is not a healthy thing for them... though I completely agree that some people do seem truly better off- happier in general being gay. This is why the subject is such a split-in-emotion causing thing for me. All I want for my loved ones is that they be happy... so I am thrilled for some to see them thriving in that lifestyle... but others only seem to be hurting themselves. I, also, just cannot understand the draw to another gender... so I cannot fully find it a healthy choice.

abigailian

  • isn't creeped out by yellow wallpaper
  • Mod-Suspect
  • Tier 7
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
  • Gender: Female
  • Oh emm SNAP!
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2009, 12:40:07 AM »
In my mind, there are two main issues here.

1. Is living a gay lifestyle right or wrong? (You can look at this from a variety of angles, such as religion, evolution, genetics, 'greater good,' etc.)
2. Should gay marriage be legalized, and in what circumstances

As far as 1 is concerned, I find it hard to believe that it is better for someone with same sex attractions to act based on those attractions than to try and suppress them. I don't believe that same sex attractions are wrong (all evidence indicates that can't be helped) but I can't think of many issues where you have people arguing that something is right solely on the reasoning that it's something they want to do. While this opinion is definitely firmly rooted in my religious beliefs, I don't think I see any particular reasons atheists or those of other faiths should support the gay lifestyle either.

Issue number two, depends entirely on how it is legalized. The courts are severely overstepping their bounds in this case. Is marriage a universal right? I would argue no, but even if it were, I am not allowed to marry a woman. This point might seem trite, but I'm arguing this isn't a point of discriminating against certain groups, it's just those groups are trying to change the definition of marriage in a way we haven't previously defined it. If gay marriage is legalized through the legislature, then as sad as I would be, it was put into law democratically, and should be honored.

I don't believe morality can be legislated. One of the great things about America (and all of the western world, basically) is that basically, if you wish to be moral you can be moral. If you wish to be immoral, no one will stop you. Therefore, while I would not support legislating gay marriage, it's not worth suspending democracy to keep it illegal.

Also, Stardale, as far as homosexuality in the Bible is concerned:

Spoiler: show
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2018;&version=51 verse 22,
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&version=51 verse 9
There's another one in the New Testament, which talks about lesbianism.

Furthermore, there are no places in which homosexuality is shown in a positive light, heterosexuality is always shown to be the norm. There are no discussion of how gay couples should treat each other. In fact, the romantic relationship between a husband and a wife is supposed to be based on the relationship of Christ and the church, so it's very difficult to see how a gay couple would fit into that view.

It's VERY difficult for me to believe that the Bible in and of itself can be read to support homosexual relationships. Every time I've seen someone make the case that it supports homosexual relationships, they use outside evidence.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 12:41:57 AM by abigailian »
This might hurt, it's not safe / But I know that I've gotta make a change / I don't care if I break,
At least I'll be feeling something


Reives

  • Dr Platplat
  • Director
  • Tier 7
  • ****
  • Posts: 11332
  • Gender: Male
    • Freebird Games
  • Current Mood: happy happy
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2009, 12:48:37 AM »
@Star:
Eh, so you are saying that for most of the homosexuals you know, you feel that it is not healthy (my question was "why is that?"). What you're saying doesn't seem to make sense to me (or maybe I'm misunderstanding) since, even if completely under the assumption that it is unhealthy and makes the person unhappy, not allowing them to marry is not even touching that since such a restriction doesn't suddenly turn them straight. And I think it's probably safe to say that the ones who are homosexual themselves would want to go with what makes them happy, and it's probably safe to say that that is not to ban gay marriage. :P

I can see arguments for banning it as well, but that particular point doesn't seem to ring to me.

@Abi:
Ahh, posted while I was typing. Will read/possibly respond at a later time.

mepwnn

  • いつまでも
  • *
  • Tier 7
  • **
  • Posts: 10988
  • Gender: Male
  • profile picture courtesy of Silentgears
  • Current Mood: happy happy
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2009, 07:09:46 PM »
I hope this helps:
The state of being gay is a problem with the mind when a person is born, and is therefore impossible to prevent them from acting the way they want to act around people of the same gender.
Is gay marriage wrong? No, as it's about the same as saying being gay is weird (in my thinking). Like Reives, arguing for banning gay marriage is pretty pointless, due to homosexuality (I think it's the same as gay) being a mental state.

Just a fact: California has banned gay marriage in 2008 for those of you who didn't know. I think the governor and mayor of SF went to challenge this ban in court. I need to get my facts straight!
Portals... must capture... ALL the portals... (click image to enlarge)

abigailian

  • isn't creeped out by yellow wallpaper
  • Mod-Suspect
  • Tier 7
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
  • Gender: Female
  • Oh emm SNAP!
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2009, 07:23:31 PM »

Banning gay marriage isn't pointless; it sends a message that homosexual relationships are not condoned, or have a different nature than heterosexual relationships (which I would argue is true.) Furthermore, even if you can't ban the mental state of homosexuality (which I would agree would be ridiculous and harmful) if same-sex marriage is illegal, it makes it more difficult for gay couples to adopt children, it doesn't lead to a legal issue with the churches who oppose same-sex marriage etc.

Being gay/homosexual means you are sexually attracted to member of your own sex. Being heterosexual means you are attracted to members of the opposite sex. There's probably a range in between. I think people don't have a great degree of choosing who they're attracted to, but you certainly can decide what you do with that attraction.
This might hurt, it's not safe / But I know that I've gotta make a change / I don't care if I break,
At least I'll be feeling something


Reives

  • Dr Platplat
  • Director
  • Tier 7
  • ****
  • Posts: 11332
  • Gender: Male
    • Freebird Games
  • Current Mood: happy happy
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2009, 07:26:03 PM »
Like Reives, arguing for banning gay marriage is pretty pointless, due to homosexuality (I think it's the same as gay) being a mental state.
Well I think it's more complex than just that. I was directing that at a particular point alone, not the whole issue.

mepwnn

  • いつまでも
  • *
  • Tier 7
  • **
  • Posts: 10988
  • Gender: Male
  • profile picture courtesy of Silentgears
  • Current Mood: happy happy
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2009, 07:33:39 PM »
@Reives Sorry about that, I must've missed something a while back. I'd better re-read this topic.
Portals... must capture... ALL the portals... (click image to enlarge)

zekallinos

  • *
  • Tier 5
  • **
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2009, 08:09:04 PM »
The fact is that there are people who have attractions that are more out of the norm. Why say no? It's not like you can change them. I think it would be wrong to force them to be "normal", just as it is wrong to force some political or social ideas or values into someone. It's not like they will become some monsters that will eat you either. Those people actually tend to be good people, who try to make an effort in life to show that they are not mentally retarded, while the "normal-cool" people tend to work on the law of minimum effort.

Although I personally think that they do not belong on the face of earth. I'm not saying "let's go exterminate them", I tolerate very well those who do exist. But I just don't know how they do exist. It's not genetical, that's for sure. It's that I feel the purpose of life, or rather the reason that life even exists to begin with is that fact that it is a renewable cycle of creation of destruction. An eternal and perfect cycle. And obviously they do not help the cycle to continue.

abigailian

  • isn't creeped out by yellow wallpaper
  • Mod-Suspect
  • Tier 7
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
  • Gender: Female
  • Oh emm SNAP!
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2009, 07:56:03 AM »
I'm kind of interested that thus far, the comments are undecided or anti gay marriage. At Amaranthia they're much more tolerant I guess. Anyone for Gay Marriage here?
This might hurt, it's not safe / But I know that I've gotta make a change / I don't care if I break,
At least I'll be feeling something


zekallinos

  • *
  • Tier 5
  • **
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2009, 10:23:49 AM »
Well, I think the one who does the marriages (religious or civil) some right to accept to do it or not. But even if banning same-sex marriages would send some "message", it still wouldn't change those people and they would still be together, so let them have some freedom, it's not like it's hurt you.

abigailian

  • isn't creeped out by yellow wallpaper
  • Mod-Suspect
  • Tier 7
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
  • Gender: Female
  • Oh emm SNAP!
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2009, 12:38:40 PM »
My comment up top was more of a bump/invitation for people who may have thus far felt excluded because the tone isn't exactly "Yeah! I'm for gay marriage 100%! Love is Love!" etc. I want to invite that viewpoint, since it seems sadly underrepresented here.

If a society at large was in favor of, or at least tolerated gay marriage, I would agree that it's reasonable to legalize it. At this point in America (and apparently in every state, as well) public opinion is generally against the idea of allowing two women or two men to marry each other. Therefore, I don't think it should be legalized through the judicial system. Before too long though, public opinion will move farther in that direction. Unlike many other Christians, I don't necessarily believe this is a loss, partially because, as you noted, gay relationships don't hurt the people around them very much.

I absolutely believe that people have free will to do what they wish. This doesn't mean that if I care about them I encourage harmful behavior. But the way I see it, if God allows people to do all the crap that they do, he obviously respects our free will. Also here's another thing to think about. Who is more moral, the person who uses sex wisely in Saudi Arabia, where it is a matter of life and death, or in the western world, where a person is free to do what they want. So I'm not exactly against same sex marriage in the sense that I would militantly oppose it, I just don't think it's good for anyone.

Obviously, this is all based on some foundational assumptions, (for instance that homosexual relationships are harmful), just trying to flesh out my opinion here.
This might hurt, it's not safe / But I know that I've gotta make a change / I don't care if I break,
At least I'll be feeling something


Ruzu

  • *
  • Tier 7
  • **
  • Posts: 868
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm stalking youuuuzzz
  • Current Mood: cheerful cheerful
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 04:57:47 AM »
I just want to throw my opinion in this.

Do I feel gay marriage is wrong? It's perfect, maybe not for me, maybe not for you.
Do I feel it should be legal everywhere? I do, but that's not for me to decide.
Do I feel if people don't like it (churches, and extremest who are against it) should turn away? Yes, to those this concerns. I'm sorry but that's how I feel.

I feel that gay marriage should be alright, and legalized, everywhere. Why you may ask is because, what's wrong with loving someone of the same gender? Hell I was bisexual before, but never dated anyone of the same sex. But I was attracted to them. Of course, I only like girls to the point I'll have sexual intercourse with them, and date them. Of course that was when I was way younger so it doesn't effect my choice as of now. I have plenty of gay friends, who are good people, and who I feel have the right to marry and have with whom they so desire.
Now I don't mean to start a fight or make anyone mad but.
Really, I hear from a lot of Christians(not trying to put them on the spot at all, but they're the ones who give my friends, hell about being gay =/) that they say gay marriage is a sin and god loathes it, I have not exactly been able to find it in the bible then again since I've become a univarsilist I haven't read the bible, but when I ask for them to show me where god states he loathes(hates for those who don't know) gay marriage, they cannot find it.
Sometimes I want to be an ass, and tell everyone who are against it that its a way of life. Not everyone will accept your way of life and date someone of the opposite gender we may like someone of the same gender (I'm only interested girls) and so yes, it should be legal and everyone should have an open mind to it.

Plus my biggest argument, is that would you rather two people who don't love each other and have nothing in common to get married or two people of the same gender who love each other to get married? Think about it.

Valtier

  • Tier 5
  • *
  • Posts: 368
  • Gender: Male
  • Apathy taken to an artform
  • Current Mood: depressed depressed
Re: Gay Marriage
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2009, 07:23:42 PM »
I see nothing wrong with gay marriage, homosexuality, or the right for such couples to adopt.  There's no need to force churches to marry gay couples against their doctrine, but that simply paints all churches as opposed.  There are plenty of churches even in this immediate area who I'm fairly sure would, have, and will continue to be open to conducting them.  So long as the rights/benefits of gay couples match that of traditional marriages, I don't see the problem.  I'm generally very tolerant towards most anything, so it's hard for me to take jabs at the opposing argument, seeing as they're definitely on a different wavelength than me.