Freebird Games Community

Community (Misc.) => General => Debates/Serious Discussions => Topic started by: Kyo on August 23, 2015, 04:41:44 AM

Title: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyo on August 23, 2015, 04:41:44 AM
That wouldn't make for a very entertaining stream.

Well, Skyrim may not be the most interesting video game ever created, but it can't be more boring than a MOBA.

(https://freebirdgames.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7oAZgWk.jpg&hash=ffcf4838533ceee286ed0d90be4bf113)
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 23, 2015, 01:00:49 PM
Well, Skyrim may not be the most interesting video game ever created, but it can't be more boring than a MOBA.

(https://freebirdgames.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7oAZgWk.jpg&hash=ffcf4838533ceee286ed0d90be4bf113)


Sick burn Kyo ;) One I wholeheartedly support. Except of course my moba of choice. <Insert my favorite MOBA here> is clearly the only fun one and the only MOBA that really is a MOBA or any good.

On the otherhand, I stream GAME DEVELOPMENT. Like, coding and artwork. I still can't understand why I or anyone else actually watches those streams. But I someone enjoy watching them, and others clearly enjoy watching them or they wouldn't come watch me :P So I think as long as you're fun to hang out with and hold good conversations with the chat, you could stream yourself watching wallpaper dry and people will come watch.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: TheFlyingMarlin on August 23, 2015, 01:33:32 PM
I'm probably gonna wait a few weeks to start streaming, since I will have access to a wired connection in my dorm (it's not the best, but it's faster than my home wifi). Also I'm hoping to get a Blue mic soon.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyden on August 23, 2015, 04:31:32 PM
That wouldn't make for a very entertaining stream.

Well, Skyrim may not be the most interesting video game ever created, but it can't be more boring than a MOBA.

(https://freebirdgames.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7oAZgWk.jpg&hash=ffcf4838533ceee286ed0d90be4bf113)

Whats that supposed to mean? Plenty of people stream MOBAs, and they do it well. And Skyrim is plenty interesting, hell more interesting than most games, but its just not good stream material.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 23, 2015, 06:35:13 PM
I'm probably gonna wait a few weeks to start streaming, since I will have access to a wired connection in my dorm (it's not the best, but it's faster than my home wifi). Also I'm hoping to get a Blue mic soon.


That will definitely help make your stream better :D

That wouldn't make for a very entertaining stream.

Well, Skyrim may not be the most interesting video game ever created, but it can't be more boring than a MOBA.

(https://freebirdgames.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7oAZgWk.jpg&hash=ffcf4838533ceee286ed0d90be4bf113)

Whats that supposed to mean? Plenty of people stream MOBAs, and they do it well. And Skyrim is plenty interesting, hell more interesting than most games, but its just not good stream material.


There's a good portion of gamers who just don't get how people enjoy MOBAs. From the outside it looks like a lot of angry people yelling at eachother and one side loosing pretty much the entire 45+ minute game. I think Heroes of the Storm is mildly enjoyable, but it's still not that great. Kyo is obviously one of the gamers who dislikes MOBAs
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Dragon Mage on August 23, 2015, 08:39:49 PM
What about Half Life 2? I bet since I'm still playing it blind, it'd make a pretty funny stream :P
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyden on August 24, 2015, 01:53:23 AM
You streaming HL2 could be funny. Escpecially with me crying in the background trying to explain the puzzles and stuff.

As for MOBAs, i get that not everyone likes it, but just because you don't like it, you can't say its bad.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyo on August 24, 2015, 03:32:31 AM
As for MOBAs, i get that not everyone likes it, but just because you don't like it, you can't say its bad.
Ah, but that's wrong. As a matter of fact, I can. Just because I have my own opinion, doesn't mean I can't be objective. For example, I don't like Starcraft, but if you asked me, I'd tell you it's a great game. I also hate Final Fantasy X-2 with passion, but I can't not admit the combat is good, because that's a fact. Just how most MOBAs being bad is a fact. Most, like LoL, Dota or HotS, but I haven't played all MOBAs, so I can't say they're all bad. Maybe at least some of them require some actual skill, instead of forcing players to click each other to death and pray for a good party.

But wait, this is not the right place to discuss the matter. Especially when I could talk for hours about how bad are MOBAs and why, and - this may come as a surprise, but I'm being completely serious - why they're killing the gaming industry (though they're only a small part of the cancer on it).
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyden on August 24, 2015, 01:59:20 PM
As for MOBAs, i get that not everyone likes it, but just because you don't like it, you can't say its bad.
Ah, but that's wrong. As a matter of fact, I can. Just because I have my own opinion, doesn't mean I can't be objective. For example, I don't like Starcraft, but if you asked me, I'd tell you it's a great game. I also hate Final Fantasy X-2 with passion, but I can't not admit the combat is good, because that's a fact. Just how most MOBAs being bad is a fact. Most, like LoL, Dota or HotS, but I haven't played all MOBAs, so I can't say they're all bad. Maybe at least some of them require some actual skill, instead of forcing players to click each other to death and pray for a good party.

But wait, this is not the right place to discuss the matter. Especially when I could talk for hours about how bad are MOBAs and why, and - this may come as a surprise, but I'm being completely serious - why they're killing the gaming industry (though they're only a small part of the cancer on it).
Just saying most MOBAs is bad is a fact - that is simply being ignorant. And saying that a game like LoL doesn't require skill is also extremely ignorant. In fact, LoL requires more skill than pretty much every other game I've played. You should do more research before you say these things - If LoL didn't require skill, it wouldn't have 27 million people watching Worlds 2014. And it wouldn't even have tournaments like that. If you think LoL doesn't take any skill and its just clicking eachother and hoping for the best, I dare you to install the game and find out. League of Legends isn't like most video games, in truth, it's more comparable to football (American or not) or something.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyo on August 24, 2015, 03:05:49 PM
Just saying most MOBAs is bad is a fact - that is simply being ignorant.

I played 4 or 5 MOBAs, including the 3 most popular and considered best - LoL, Dota 2 and HotS. They were bad. If they're the best, it is my understanding that at least most of the others are bad as well. Just simple logic. But if you insist, okay - I'm not saying MOBA is a bad genre, because I haven't played them all. I'll narrow it down to just those I played. They are bad.

Quote
And saying that a game like LoL doesn't require skill is also extremely ignorant. In fact, LoL requires more skill than pretty much every other game I've played.

Well, you do need a few hours to get how skills and stuff work, I'll give you that. Basically, it's like a memory game (http://www.web-games-online.com/memory/). It's hard until you learn all the fields. The rest depends on the teams anyway.

Quote
You should do more research before you say these things - If LoL didn't require skill, it wouldn't have 27 million people watching Worlds 2014.

Because people don't like complicated things. Of course more people would watch a LoL game than, for example, read about quantum physics. So, quantum physics is easier than LoL?
And by the way, Justin Bieber's "Boyfriend" music video has been watched almost 500 millions of times, only on YT. That sure means it's good and complicated.
Spoiler: show
Well, listening to it does require some skill though.


Quote
And it wouldn't even have tournaments like that. If you think LoL doesn't take any skill and its just clicking eachother and hoping for the best, I dare you to install the game and find out. League of Legends isn't like most video games, in truth, it's more comparable to football (American or not) or something.

I did and I'm not wasting any more time on it just to prove something to someone.
It's more comparable to Warcraft 3 multiplayer mod rather. However the original Warcraft 3 was more complex.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 24, 2015, 03:12:45 PM
Just because I have my own opinion, doesn't mean I can't be objective....Just how most MOBAs being bad is a fact. Most, like LoL, Dota or HotS, but I haven't played all MOBAs, so I can't say they're all bad. Maybe at least some of them require some actual skill, instead of forcing players to click each other to death and pray for a good party.

Alright first off, "good" or "bad" (especially when speaking about entertainment) are not objectively definable. It always comes down to opinion. I can explain to you why icecream is disgusting until I'm blue in the face, but it's a matter of taste. I don't like MOBAs, but you can't dismiss them as "objectively bad" or claim their low quality as a fact that none can dispute.

Also, if you think they don't require skill, you know nothing about them at ALL. While it's true, one amazing player will lose if his entire team sucks, that doesn't mean skill isn't a factor in the game. In Soccer (football to everyone outside the US), you'd need one INSANELY good player to face off against a team of even moderate skill if his teammates are incompetent. MOBAs involve as much mind game and strategic positioning as any fighting game or RTS. I think the top down carpal tunnel inducing click-spam control scheme is awful, but that doesn't remove skill from the game.

Kyo, I respect your opinions, but you have to realize that they're just opinions not facts. By the "objective" standards of most games critics, To the Moon is "factually" a bad game (or not a game depending on who you ask). But the things that are objective problems with the game to them are unimportant to us or part of what make us enjoy the game.

(I still hate LOL though. It's truly unpleasant to play :P Everyone is angry ALL THE TIME)

Quote
You should do more research before you say these things - If LoL didn't require skill, it wouldn't have 27 million people watching Worlds 2014.

I have to agree with Kyo. That doesn't make any sense. People watch stupid crap all the time.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyden on August 24, 2015, 03:35:23 PM
Yeah, I guess something isn't just good because its popular, but still.
Like what legacy said, something isn't bad just because you don't like it. Also, I havn't played the original warcraft 3 mod, so I don't know. While a lot of it is a game of memory, thats only a small amount. MOBAs do require a lot of strategy, deciding when to take objectives, if you can teamfight, ect.
And I have nothing against people who don't like the game. It can be EXTREMELY upleasant to play, as the community largely does suck. That however, applies to pretty much all MOBAs, and MANY games in general. Any competitive muiltiplayer game has a sucky community. Still, when you get a good game, its a lot of fun, and playing with friends is great.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyo on August 25, 2015, 03:32:06 AM
I'd like to remind you two we're in Chatter Spot. This is not Debates/Serious Discussions. So please, act accordingly.

I don't really have anything against MOBAs or LoL personally. I just wanted to see how people would react, because it was getting boring.

Though I don't agree with legacyblade about being objective. You could say the same thing about two cars - 1 (http://i.imgur.com/mdU0xTG.jpg) and 2 (http://i.imgur.com/BUYTjAY.jpg). You can like the first one more, but objectively the latter is better.

Just like that, I have fun playing Nosgoth. And Nosgoth is a bad game.

Spoiler: show


Almost as bad as LoL.


(https://freebirdgames.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7bCySA3.png&hash=ffdbd126e62e37ce24c8c126abb97289)
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Sun on August 25, 2015, 03:55:26 AM
I'd like to remind you two we're in Chatter Spot. This is not Debates/Serious Discussions. So please, act accordingly.

I don't really have anything against MOBAs or LoL personally. I just wanted to see how people would react, because it was getting boring.

So you got exactly what you were hoping for. A reaction. Good.
But why exactly would serious arguments be forbidden in that reaction?
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyo on August 25, 2015, 04:01:28 AM
But why exactly would serious arguments be forbidden in that reaction?
Because I objectively say so which means it's a fact.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Sun on August 25, 2015, 04:06:33 AM
But why exactly would serious arguments be forbidden in that reaction?
Because I objectively say so which means it's a fact.
Statements like these objectively need more emoticons to disambiguate between irony and earnestness. Fact. I vote for the sarcasm marker they were discussing on the web a while ago.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyo on August 25, 2015, 04:12:20 AM
But why exactly would serious arguments be forbidden in that reaction?
Because I objectively say so which means it's a fact.
Statements like these objectively need more emoticons to disambiguate between irony and earnestness. Fact. I vote for the sarcasm marker they were discussing on the web a while ago.
I vote against such markers. I'd need to use them in my every post which would become a nuisance. Instead, I vote for seriousness markers.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Sun on August 25, 2015, 04:23:20 AM
But why exactly would serious arguments be forbidden in that reaction?
Because I objectively say so which means it's a fact.
Statements like these objectively need more emoticons to disambiguate between irony and earnestness. Fact. I vote for the sarcasm marker they were discussing on the web a while ago.
I vote against such markers. I'd need to use them in my every post which would become a nuisance. Instead, I vote for seriousness markers.
I vote for giving you a new sigline: "Poster is rarely serious. Look out of window to ensure presence of flying pigs before taking this post literally."
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyo on August 25, 2015, 04:30:34 AM
But why exactly would serious arguments be forbidden in that reaction?
Because I objectively say so which means it's a fact.
Statements like these objectively need more emoticons to disambiguate between irony and earnestness. Fact. I vote for the sarcasm marker they were discussing on the web a while ago.
I vote against such markers. I'd need to use them in my every post which would become a nuisance. Instead, I vote for seriousness markers.
I vote for giving you a new sigline: "Poster is rarely serious. Look out of window to ensure presence of flying pigs before taking this post literally."
That's a nice idea. I'll put that line in my signature right after you get yourself a profile pic.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Sun on August 25, 2015, 06:23:48 AM
I see. While I don't see what's wrong with my current profile pic (who's been heartbroken ever since previous anime dude left your profile), I'll look into changing it when pyramid posting gets outlawed in Freebirdia. I might do it earlier if my current pic doesn't stop writing awful poems.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyden on August 25, 2015, 01:12:04 PM
I tried Nosgoth. It would be a lot of fun to play with friends, but otherwise, eh, its okay.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 25, 2015, 01:17:19 PM
Though I don't agree with legacyblade about being objective. You could say the same thing about two cars - 1 ([url]http://i.imgur.com/mdU0xTG.jpg[/url]) and 2 ([url]http://i.imgur.com/BUYTjAY.jpg[/url]). You can like the first one more, but objectively the latter is better.


There is no such thing as "objectively" better. Only better within a certain subjective frame of reference. For example, I think Ferraris and other such sport cars are far worse than let's say a toyota prius, because I'm making my judgement from the cost-performance set of standards. However, a high powered executive would judge from the standards of what makes him appear more affluent and successful. A professional racer would also use a different set of standards to judge cars.

There are no objective standards through which to judge things (especially something as subjective as entertainment), only subjective sets of standards through which to judge. I will admit that the vast majority of people have very similar standards through which to judge. If a game crashes frequently for no reason, very few people will not view that as a marker of a low quality game (just as most people will consider a car that has been totaled "objectively" worse than one that runs, regardless of what the totaled car would have been before).

I don't enjoy MOBA's, but you can't say an entire genre is objectively bad, because the standards by which you're judging the game are subjective to what you are looking for in a game. Especially when the point of video games are to be entertained or have some sort of compelling experience. You can't objectively judge the experience or entertainment someone else derives from a game, or objectively decide what things will detract from the quality of a game.

Honestly, saying otherwise sounds arrogant and ignorant. Your statement boils down to "You may have your own opinion on the matter, but my opinion is fact and you're deluded for believing contrary to me" :P I'm not saying I don't find MOBAs a tedious exercise in clicking rapidly while trying to get emotionally and socially dysfunctional people to band together as a team. I only fault your erroneous belief that your opinions are somehow objective fact.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: TheFlyingMarlin on August 25, 2015, 02:09:59 PM
 :KOT: :LOT: :DOT: Just a reminder, this is about Freebirdians streaming on Twitch, not about how MOBA's are an inferior form of game and how some games can be objectively better or worse than others.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 25, 2015, 02:18:27 PM
:KOT: :LOT: :DOT: Just a reminder, this is about Freebirdians streaming on Twitch, not about how MOBA's are an inferior form of game and how some games can be objectively better or worse than others.

True dat! We should prolly stop this pointless debate.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Dragon Mage on August 25, 2015, 03:43:55 PM
:KOT: :LOT: :DOT: Just a reminder, this is about Freebirdians streaming on Twitch, not about how MOBA's are an inferior form of game and how some games can be objectively better or worse than others.

True dat! We should prolly stop this pointless debate.
Yeah, I'm almost tempted to open up a separate thread for Twitch streaming times.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 25, 2015, 06:40:53 PM
Naw, I'll just split this whole debate off into it's own thread.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Dragon Mage on August 26, 2015, 02:16:14 AM
 :whaaa?: What did you just do exactly?
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Kyo on August 26, 2015, 02:31:56 AM
There is no such thing as "objectively" better.

Well, that's just like your subjective opinion, man.


:whaaa?: What did you just do exactly?

Made a new thread about MOBAs and put all MOBA-related posts from the stream thread in it.


Quote
Debates/Serious Discussions

(https://freebirdgames.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWxGWr4A.jpg&hash=325238002db36fddcdf1ed6fe41d6dc7)


I'm out then.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Dragon Mage on August 26, 2015, 03:13:13 AM
Quote
Debates/Serious Discussions

(https://freebirdgames.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWxGWr4A.jpg&hash=325238002db36fddcdf1ed6fe41d6dc7)


I'm out then.

I second this notion. I'm not good in serious discussions and has even been told to shut up one time.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Reives on August 26, 2015, 04:32:17 AM
Silly thread-split for
Quote
Debates/Serious Discussions
imo :P
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Sun on August 26, 2015, 07:06:11 AM
Silly thread-split for
Quote
Debates/Serious Discussions
imo :P

Well, a certain person was very clear about actual MOBA discussion with arguments being too serious a topic for the chatterbox. And emotions were flaring up.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 26, 2015, 12:10:34 PM
There is no such thing as "objectively" better.
Well, that's just like your subjective opinion, man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c)

And yeah, that's what every debate does eventually come down to :P And arguing about how things are ALWAYS subjective does make one sound ALMOST as silly as Obi Wan when he says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" XD


Silly thread-split for
Quote
Debates/Serious Discussions
imo :P

Yeah. And I assume this isn't going to go much further as I think all sides have made their views clear, but as Sun said, it was a bit too debatey to be split to the chatterbox. And the debate was hijacking another thread, so I figured a frivolous split was better than TOO much off topic.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: A Fat Kid on September 02, 2015, 08:30:32 AM
I've had plenty of productive debates/discussions in my life, and with both parties sharing opposing views at that. Preventing a discussion from getting heated/degrading into nitpicks relies on the parties both being mature and knowledgeable. Debates aren't about winning. They're about understanding another perspective. If there was a clear winner, it wouldn't even be a discussion topic in the first place.

I think it's rather sad, what it says about Freebirdians, when most debates here either peter out or end up in some proto flame war.

I'll just drop my on-topic stuff here.

I've never played a MOBA, and I never will because I think they run on terrible game design (yes, that is subjective). It boils down to 2 main characteristics of MOBAs: small team size and random multiplayer.

The smaller the team, the greater the impact a good player will have, and conversely, the more a poor player will become a burden to their team. Add random teams and non-existent coordination to that, and you will almost be guaranteed a frustrating, hair-tearing experience. And I absolutely refuse to play any game if there is even the slightest chance that I'd stop playing feeling even worse than when I started.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: Erenussocrates on September 03, 2015, 07:50:41 AM
I started heroes of the storm recently, but I got bored out of it as well. Anything that requires you to grind too much to get a hero/character that you very much wanted is a no-no for me. I've done enough of that in LoL. Plus you still get angry in HotS as well.
Title: Re: Are MOBAs any good?
Post by: GingerCorslette on September 03, 2015, 10:40:11 AM
I don't usually dig games that require you to team up with random people online, especially when they are meant to be competitive.  If not always, cooperation is mostly half-assed, which then leads to even more pointless arguing.