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Community (Misc.) => General => Debates/Serious Discussions => Topic started by: Abrom on August 24, 2015, 11:41:34 AM

Title: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Abrom on August 24, 2015, 11:41:34 AM
So a couple years back, my half brother posted something on facebook that every child should have to pledge allegiance to the flag in school. I disagreed, and it was asked of me if I ever voted. When I said no, people said that I didn't have a right to complain about anything then. I explained that I don't vote because the system's broken, we had a long debate, and the discussion eventually died out. Recently, I had a real-life acquaintance post that he was supporting Donald Trump. I thought it was a bad idea, we had a debate which involved some of the same people, and again, it was said that I didn't have a right to complain because I don't vote. I made a long post saying that they have no rights over me, whether I vote or not. It's received mild responses, and although they haven't blatantly said that they apologize or were in the wrong, it seems to be accepted.
And, thus brings me here. Do you think people who don't vote still have a right to complain about their government? Now, as we all know, debates over whether you should have special privileges over others becomes a VERY touchy subject. So, if you post, I guess we should try to keep it mild. If you can't put anything into words without being offensive, then there's a poll up there you can use as well.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: atommo on August 24, 2015, 12:20:30 PM
Without saying too much, I feel you have a right to complain even if you don't vote.

Here's an analogy: You want to eat toast with jam and butter. You can choose between 3 options:

A- Toast with jam
B- Bread with jam and butter
C- Toast with butter

All of these options offer part of what you want but none of them offer all that you want. Some people may choose not to choose any of these because they don't provide what they want fullstop. Other may choose the next best option, although that is debatable due to opinion.

If none of the options offer what you want, you can complain. Some people may argue you should create your own option. That's easier said than done. While that may be simple enough in the analogy, in real life with politics there's extra factors such as money/corruption.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Abrom on August 24, 2015, 01:40:27 PM
If none of the options offer what you want, you can complain. Some people may argue you should create your own option. That's easier said than done. While that may be simple enough in the analogy, in real life with politics there's extra factors such as money/corruption.
Exactly. One of the replies I got was that if I didn't like the system, instead of complaining, I should try to change it by voting, running for office, etc. My reply was that if I somehow am ever able to come up with a solid plan to change the system for the better, then I'll definitely try it; but, in the meantime, I don't think voting or running for office will change anything.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Kyden on August 24, 2015, 01:53:35 PM
I agree, the system is broken, AND no one agrees completely with whoever they're voting for. While I personally think you should be voting, I don't think that not voting doesn't take your right to complain. However, at the same time, complaining accomplishes little, and I think we should spend as little time complaining about things whether we're voting or not.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Sun on August 24, 2015, 02:19:19 PM
Of course you can complain. It's the country of free speech. Why would you not have the right to complain!

Still: You can complain all you want, but that doesn't necessarily change anything either. Voting on the other hand is one of the easiest ways to participate in what shapes your nation. It's not perfect? Well, what is?
[Here, I cut out an example from my country and change that came to be from voting. Can type it out again if wanted. No need to bore you though.]
Of course there are still many other means of changing things. Like being in one of those groups that try to change the world for the better by demonstrating, calling for boycotts, collecting signatures etc.
Or by writing critical articles - I find a lot of those on the web or in the papers, and their kind of thinking seems to have found its way into everyday life.
Or by starting your own company and building sustainable devices, for example. Etc. pp.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 24, 2015, 03:01:00 PM
I vote specifically so I have a "right to complain" XD But honestly, a single vote is NOT going to change anything. If you voted for the alternative that wouldn't do anything, so you can complain as much as you want even if you don't vote.

Though, out of curiosity, why DON'T you vote? It only takes like 15 mins.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: EgotisticalRaven on August 24, 2015, 05:25:41 PM
In Australia, you HAVE to vote when you become an adult. That's how we ended up with stupid Tony Abbott. This is what forcing everyone to vote ends up as.  :facepalm:

Also, it really depends what you were complaining about, if you were complaining that the guy is not someone you would want, and you'd rather another guy, then you can't complain, as you should've voted. If you are complaining about the government in general, and about how they all suck, you can complain all you want.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Abrom on August 24, 2015, 06:37:21 PM
I vote specifically so I have a "right to complain" XD But honestly, a single vote is NOT going to change anything. If you voted for the alternative that wouldn't do anything, so you can complain as much as you want even if you don't vote.

Though, out of curiosity, why DON'T you vote? It only takes like 15 mins.
Two reasons
1. Electoral College - For those of you who don't know how it works, presidential elections in the U.S. is not a simple popular vote. When you put in your vote, it gets tallied up in that state. Now, whichever candidate receives the majority vote in that state, he gets ALL the votes from that state. If you're on the losing side, your vote doesn't even go to who you wanted, it instead goes to the victor. So, if that wasn't bad enough, your vote is not equal. Due to some stupid amendments made long ago, the individual vote in certain states are worth more than an individual vote in another. On top of that, Senators and Representatives get a huge deciding vote. This is SUPPOSED to be the time that you represent yourself, but yet, your Representative gets a much bigger say than you do.
2. The Candidates - The only candidate I've ever seen that wasn't a crooked politician, has been Donald Trump, who's a crooked businessman. And I know that every politician, at some point, started out as some young person who had hopes of changing the system for the better. But that doesn't happen. The system changes you. As much as I'd like for a white knight to come along and make everything better, it's not going to happen. Presidents are either Republican or Democrat, and those parties have their own agendas, along with the agenda of whatever corporation is backing them. Laws prohibiting Monsanto from being sued don't get passed on accident. BP's fines don't get reduced on accident. Like Donald Trump flaunted, if you pay off politicians, you get what you want.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Thunderbird on August 24, 2015, 08:08:17 PM
1. Electoral College - For those of you who don't know how it works, presidential elections in the U.S. is not a simple popular vote. When you put in your vote, it gets tallied up in that state. Now, whichever candidate receives the majority vote in that state, he gets ALL the votes from that state. If you're on the losing side, your vote doesn't even go to who you wanted, it instead goes to the victor. So, if that wasn't bad enough, your vote is not equal. Due to some stupid amendments made long ago, the individual vote in certain states are worth more than an individual vote in another. On top of that, Senators and Representatives get a huge deciding vote. This is SUPPOSED to be the time that you represent yourself, but yet, your Representative gets a much bigger say than you do.

Voting systems like that are ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered a democracy.
More like aristocracy/oligarchy light or something.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: TheFlyingMarlin on August 24, 2015, 09:33:02 PM
The only candidate I've ever seen that wasn't a crooked politician, has been Donald Trump, who's a crooked businessman.

He's only not a crooked politician in his views of the corrupting influence that money has in the American political system. His policies are insane.

Also, I wouldn't consider Bernie Sanders to be a crooked politician either.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 24, 2015, 09:42:18 PM
Voting systems like that are ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered a democracy.
More like aristocracy/oligarchy light or something.

America was designed from the ground up as a "democratic republic", rather than a democracy. Though I've always thought the Electoral College system was pretty freaking stupid though. It over-complicates the process and pretty much eliminates the very tiny influence citizens have.

But I just vote so I can say I do :P Since my vote literally does nothing, I just vote so I don't have to get crap about not voting.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: GingerCorslette on August 25, 2015, 06:34:47 PM
I don't see the problem in this.  IF YOU VOTE, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN.

If these people you voted into office produce results you'd complain about, you partly caused that problem since you voted them in the first place.  In such case, those who abstained on the other hand could only be the ones to complain.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Abrom on August 25, 2015, 06:43:39 PM
I don't see the problem in this.  IF YOU VOTE, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN.

If these people you voted into office produce results you'd complain about, you partly caused that problem since you voted them in the first place.  In such case, those who abstained on the other hand could only be the ones to complain.
You must also be a fan of some of George Carlin's work :) Here's a link to that exact rant, but be warned, there is foul language. 2 minutes in is what we're really referring to - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk)

In Australia, you HAVE to vote when you become an adult.
Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention! Because in my debate with these people, there's a loud mouth that's going on about how our forefathers fought and died for our right to vote and I need to use it to change anything or else I can't complain. So, I came up with this response - "(Insert Name), if you think voting is all it takes to change the system, then I really thought you should know something - at least 13 countries around the world have mandatory voting laws for adults. Now, how long do you think it will take before these governments become perfect, and when will you be moving there?" I can't wait to see IF he even has a response for that XD
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Thunderbird on August 25, 2015, 06:54:58 PM
I don't see the problem in this.  IF YOU VOTE, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN.

If these people you voted into office produce results you'd complain about, you partly caused that problem since you voted them in the first place.  In such case, those who abstained on the other hand could only be the ones to complain.

That's still bs. e.g. if you vote fore someone and they don't behave like they promised, you should complain.
Actually you should complain so much that they don't see the end of it.
or e.g. if you voted for the "lesser evil" you still can complain about how it's still not good (even if the other party would be even worse)

In short all this "you did vote or did not vote for x...you have no right to complain" is just a stupid try to silence people about their opnions.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Kyden on August 25, 2015, 07:11:20 PM
I see a poll at the beginning of this page.
I'm not going to vote, because I like neither option.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Abrom on August 25, 2015, 07:24:13 PM
I don't see the problem in this.  IF YOU VOTE, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN.

If these people you voted into office produce results you'd complain about, you partly caused that problem since you voted them in the first place.  In such case, those who abstained on the other hand could only be the ones to complain.

That's still bs. e.g. if you vote fore someone and they don't behave like they promised, you should complain.
Actually you should complain so much that they don't see the end of it.
or e.g. if you voted for the "lesser evil" you still can complain about how it's still not good (even if the other party would be even worse)

In short all this "you did vote or did not vote for x...you have no right to complain" is just a stupid try to silence people about their opnions.


Really, I think it's a suitable response just to piss off people that think they deserve more than others because they're complying with the system. Of course, I really feel if you voted for someone, and they screw up, you still have a right to complain, because they more-or-less betrayed you.

I see a poll at the beginning of this page.
I'm not going to vote, because I like neither option.
What option would you prefer there to be? Or is this just a joke about not voting?
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: GingerCorslette on August 25, 2015, 11:47:35 PM
I don't see the problem in this.  IF YOU VOTE, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN.

If these people you voted into office produce results you'd complain about, you partly caused that problem since you voted them in the first place.  In such case, those who abstained on the other hand could only be the ones to complain.

That's still bs. e.g. if you vote fore someone and they don't behave like they promised, you should complain.

Uh, I was referring to the right to complain.  :)  Invoking the right itself is a different matter.  If I vote for Trump and he f's everything up, I'll sound a little more stupid when I whine about it than someone who also complains but voted against him.

You must also be a fan of some of George Carlin's work :) Here's a link to that exact rant, but be warned, there is foul language. 2 minutes in is what we're really referring to - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk)

Yeah I stole that from him :) but it basically is what I wanted to say.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Abrom on August 26, 2015, 11:51:52 AM
Alright, so we don't have any one-sided boisterous types here, but we MIGHT have people here that vote for one political party only. And, even if you don't, you probably know someone that does. I would like to share some views with you. The first entry is mine. Now, even if you don't agree with me, the second entry is from my pastor brother, and I think it's a view that everyone can agree with.

Quote
"If not voting makes you feel better fine but how is that going to changes any thing. Name one thing in this country that has changed by the act of not voting" Short answer - nothing. Long answer - That's the tricky thing. Politicians don't need to cater to us, they just need to cater to the people that keep casting their votes for the same political party over and over. They'll always ignore us, because the system works for them just fine. I could go through all the time and effort to dig up as much info on independents and try to pick the best out of them, but that doesn't change the fact that I still believe they'll be corrupted by the system instead of changing it. So, a way to resolve this, and another reason to speak my mind, would be if I can get the loudest party-based voters I know to realize our reasons, and then you guys could spread the word of what your political party should be trying to impress you (and me) with. That way, sleazy politicians might be tricked into doing the right thing, like, for starters, doing away with the electoral college. If they're tricked into changing enough, maybe the system might look good enough that a non-voter could take interest in it. If the political system actually cares about my vote, then they need to show it. Right now, it's set in its ways because there's enough people that are going to vote for a political party just for the sake of voting. So, like you said (Insert Name), the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and you think voting is an important thing for all Americans to do. If you want me to not only vote for your candidate, but just vote in general, then perhaps you could do a little squeaking for the 50% of us that don't vote?
Quote
I said I vote, but that doesn't mean I think there is only one logic. In fact, that's one of the things I hate about the political sphere: the idea that "my reasoning" is the right one and everyone else is either stupid or corrupt. There are very sincere, very intelligent people who disagree entirely with me. It's why I entered the conversation. There needs to be real discussion, not the debates that are always entered into. There needs to be listening, and, with that, is the concept that "I could be wrong." That's why I don't think debates solve anything (which, I know, is ironic right now), as it usually solidifies the person into the side they started on. The way we enter into discussions is never to understand the other person; it's to tell them how wrong they are. I strongly believe the political system needs to change, but America needs to change first. We have to start listening to each other. This means not simply waiting for our chance to respond and fix them, but actually considering how what they say may change us. This, I think, is much more true to the founding fathers than simply voting. This is a government by the people and for the people. It's when people are actually participating as people. This is a true engagement of government if people truly engage one another. The thing changed by not voting: politicians and media asking, "Why aren't the young people being engaged?" It's because people aren't engaged anymore. That must change. You may ask why I advocate for not voting. It's because I already vote, but I'm not simply content with believing I'm the one who is right and everyone else is wrong. This doesn't only apply only to politics. This applies to EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Sun on August 26, 2015, 12:06:56 PM
Wonderful thought by your brother ... but it'd be easier to change the US election system (since it's about how something is organized) than to change every person. Party-pooping, I know.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Legacyblade on August 26, 2015, 12:11:34 PM
It'd also be a lot easier just to move somewhere awesome. Like Japan. So I guess if you don't vote, you're moving to Japan!
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Thunderbird on August 26, 2015, 12:11:42 PM
Wonderful thought by your brother ... but it'd be easier to change the US election system (since it's about how something is organized) than to change every person. Party-pooping, I know.

Problem is...who is in charge of changing it?
Oh yeah...exactly the ones that like it the way it is at the moment.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Sun on August 26, 2015, 12:45:05 PM
Problem is...who is in charge of changing it?
Oh yeah...exactly the ones that like it the way it is at the moment.
That's why people campaign - it worked for things like women's suffrage or the end of racial segregation.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Abrom on August 26, 2015, 01:24:20 PM
Problem is...who is in charge of changing it?
Oh yeah...exactly the ones that like it the way it is at the moment.
That's why people campaign - it worked for things like women's suffrage or the end of racial segregation.
It's a catch-22. How can you change the voting system, when no political party wants to change it (and I mean change it for the better, because there are some that want to make it even more exclusive, by making it mandatory to provide lawful identification in order to vote, despite that there's been almost no problems with that part of it)? It's obviously a problem when 50% of the population doesn't vote, yet the only political talk of changing it is about throwing up another obstacle. And even if a candidate does come along that wants to change it, then you have to use the same system you despise to vote for him. Not to mention that it's very likely that you might not agree with his other policies and political backing, or you might not want to see him corrupted by the system. The system's evolved to a point that I see no way for it to really get better, only slowly decline until it finally breaks down and we start anew.
Title: Re: No Vote = No Right to Complain?
Post by: Mela on August 28, 2015, 02:17:55 PM
Of course you still have the right to complain especially if you do not have any decent options and voting would not change anything. A few years ago my country's Federal Court of Justice decided that politicians are not obligated to keep their promises meaning they can lie through their teeth and then do as their please, so how would voting make sense in this case when you know basically any canidate can spread false promises without any consequences?