Freebird Games Community

Episode 1: To the Moon => To the Moon - Discussions => Topic started by: Amandaaa on February 18, 2015, 02:16:55 PM

Title: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Amandaaa on February 18, 2015, 02:16:55 PM
Thoughts on the new minisode?? :D

I guess this was a really confusing minisode so like...
-What was with the reappearing Evas in the new minisode?
-What was Neil trying to do with the machine?
-I heard a lot of people talking about Neil's parents?
-thoughts on Eva's diary?
-Who turned off the machine?
-Who's memories do u think they're actually in?

and like any other thoughts or comments or stuff yah :0
 :pegasled: :plat: :platquack: :Evapple: :deepstuff: :facepalm: :Evapple: :Evapple: :zombieva:



Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Pretzle on February 18, 2015, 02:36:13 PM
I was waiting for this topic... Ok, instead of waiting for others, let me start...

Spoiler: show
What was quite confusing to me was that first it seemed like Neil was using the machine himself somehow, but at the end you could see Eva in the machine, which makes me wonder, what is real (if anything?! Although it would be lame if nothing was about the minisode ;))?

My (very varied) guesses after the first playthrough:
- Neil is experimenting with the machine, maybe he is even addicted to it.
- As we have suspected for a long time, Neil is very ill and is trying to use the machine to to not just change memories, but to change reality somehow.
- Neil is using Eva as a guinea pig for some weeeeiiird experiment.
- Eva is the one doing weird experiments and has Neil trapped in her (probably not so evil) plans.


Short version: I thought I had it figured out, ending totally got me off guard and confused the heck out of me...
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: MattHakor on February 18, 2015, 02:43:48 PM
I'm trying to wrap my head around what I just saw. I first had a hint that Eva was in one of those machines when we saw a double of her. (A Glitch in the Matrix if you will which is of course one of the hints that what we are seeing is memories being played out in the machine vs. what is actually happening)

How much of it was real? That's the real question isn't it? It does seem like Neil probably really is trying to use the machine on either himself or Eva. We know that for whatever reason, the memories only stick albeit briefly with someone who is weakened and about to die hence why Eva is aware that something is amiss here and there.

I really want to see what this means for the next full game in the series.
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Abrom on February 18, 2015, 03:20:37 PM
I don't think it's necessary to hide our thoughts in a spoiler tab, since this topic seems to be devoted to this kind of thing. Anyway, things to think about - Eva sees herself walking across the road, Neil appears to be trying to access his own memories, Neil gets interrupted when the power gets taken down by himself (or at least someone accessing the machine under his name), and then the final scene, when we see Eva in one of the machine's helmets (it looks like someone is on a couch with a helmet as well; anyone know who that is...or was there even another person? I might have to wait for a video to be put up to take a closer look. EDIT - Watched Cry's video, saw that Eva was alone in that room; I mistook the machine next to the couch as a person with a helmet. My bad).
Now, here's my thoughts on it - If Eva was having her memories altered in a normal fashion, there would be no reason for her to see herself...not unless it was done on purpose to try and give her a hint at something. Same thing goes for the powering down of the generator under Neil's name. But, however you look it, it appears that someone wanted to stop Neil from altering or accessing his own memories (or whatever it was that he was about to do). Maybe this is because something happens to the mind when one tries to alter it themselves. After all, if he did successfully alter his own memories, he would still have the memory of himself altering it (paradox?). Maybe that's why Eva saw herself; her mind is degrading. Because, when you think about it, if the power hadn't been shut down, Eva would have walked in on Neil doing whatever he was doing. Now, what would that have actually led up to? With Neil's medical condition and family troubles, you might think that he would want to change something in his own memories, but we're also given hints that Eva seems to have her own troubles. What if Neil is just using himself as a guinea pig, to test if altering your own memories would work or not? Because, maybe there's something traumatizing that happened to Eva, but she doesn't want anyone else digging around in her head. So, what if Neil alters his own memories, then recommends Eva to do the same (which she does), but it's not until later on that the mind degradation takes place. Maybe those inconsistencies that we were seeing were efforts being done to try and right their memories, and/or a combination of memories that they tried to remove.
Anyhow, everything I said was PURE SPECULATION! Kan is doing a great job of leaving us with cliffhangers and leading us on. I can't wait to see what this all builds up to.

P.S. - Just thought of this - What if Neil isn't actually dying, but WAS dying. Maybe he was a patient, had his memories altered, and then pulled through. Maybe he has to take the painkillers to still deal with the effects of his near death experience. Maybe that's why someone was trying to stop him from accessing his own memories. But, why would Eva see herself? If this was the case, then when Neil would have accessed his own memories, that would have messed him up pretty bad. Maybe Eva is trying to alter her own memories to do away with that. OH, THE POSSIBILITIES!
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: nekobuster on February 18, 2015, 05:11:24 PM
So I have decided to make a Freebird Games account (finally) just to make speculations on the future games. Having played the second minisode, I found myself quite blown out of my mind, just because of its ending. So here's what I think:

Since Eva was quite surprised about seeing herself and noticing the manual shutdown by Neil. So what I think is that Eva doesn't know about her being in the machine. This might be because Neil is using her as an experiment while she was asleep or unconscious (maybe after being hit with that broom?!) and from the rest onward, she is experiencing her own memories (which she has nothing to alter she has nothing to alter) and isn't damaged because of that. This theory doesn't really prove why Neil is taking painkillers because those explanations may be separate to Eva's inception experience.

Of course, this is pure speculation... the minisode was pretty good experience(despite it ending a littler earlier than I expected). Can't wait until the next episode!
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Erenussocrates on February 18, 2015, 06:51:18 PM
I think it was all related to preventing Neil from doing what he was about to do when he was alone that night. Maybe a future Neil and a future Eva entered either Eva or Neil's memories, and they altered the events there so that Neil cannot do what he is about to do there. Neil did something really terribly wrong, and either (or both of them) want to forget about it, perhaps. That's my tiny theory.

But in any case, it's a huge mystery and crazy curiousity, and I cannot wait what future brings.
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Sun on February 18, 2015, 06:56:48 PM
It's really hard to say what is going on.

Two things about the ending seem very clear: Eva is the one using the machine and yes, everything we've seen (including what happened in TtM, too) is just happening inside the machine. After all, it's "reality" that glitches to reveal Eva sitting in a dark room, just like there was a glitch at the end of TtM.

We seem to have 2 doppelgangers in the minisode, one for Eva, one for Neil.
Then again, we never see Neil's doppelganger. Eva-2 could just as well have used Neil's login to shut down power.

Abrom, interesting thought, that whoever it was shut down power so Eva wouldn't walk in on Neil using the machine. That seems very likely and maybe it's what happened in reality? And maybe that triggered a cascade of events that whoever it is wants to repair?
Orrr when you are inside a memory already, you cannot pull an Inception and go into a memory in that memory. Because the machine might crash simulating two layers (or something comparable). So Neil had to be kept from unwittingly going to the second level?

Odd though that Eva seems so little "in control" of the simulation. She doesn't act like she did in TtM, directly changing things in the memory, where possible. Instead, she plays along as if it were real life. Why would she call and talk to her sister if she didn't believe she is really at the other end of the line? Could it be that the Eva we follow is the simulated one, and the real Eva is the one seen crossing the street and turning off the power generator?

So whose memory is Eva manipulating? Most likely option clearly is Neil.  But what's odd, in TtM we could only experience things that Johnny had participated in himself. Logical, since he couldn't have knowledge of events where he was not present. Yet we get to follow both Neil and Eva. Would that be an oversight by Kan, or a just a very subtle hint by him that it's not that simple? Maybe both doctors are somehow simulating and being simulated?
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: MattHakor on February 18, 2015, 07:38:18 PM
I really like the Inception reference. It does really make you wonder exactly what the Machine is capable of.

I can't wait to see what happens next because there's no way what we saw in this minisode won't tie into the bigger metaplot.

One interesting thought is where in the timeline this particular Christmas is happening in relation to Finding Paradise. We know the first minisode definitely happened after TTM.
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: broccoli on February 18, 2015, 09:58:00 PM
I just spent a few minutes going back and NOT locking away Eva's diary in her office. Went back there with Neil to get this ominous-sounding diary entry!
Also, I wonder what role Neil's parents will play in all this.
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: GingerCorslette on February 18, 2015, 10:12:59 PM
Maybe the two doctors are already dead.
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Abrom on February 18, 2015, 10:15:58 PM
I just spent a few minutes going back and NOT locking away Eva's diary in her office. Went back there with Neil to get this ominous-sounding diary entry!
Also, I wonder what role Neil's parents will play in all this.
Nice! The feeling of being followed, which I'm assuming means that someone's going through her memories, in invisible form. Eva going through Eva's memories? :)
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Dragon Mage on February 18, 2015, 10:39:57 PM
There's so many questions right now :o I hope they get answered in future episodes soon (or minisodes). I'd drop a theory here but I don't have anything at the moment :reivsweat:
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Dev J Chand on February 18, 2015, 10:54:46 PM
What I seemed to understand mainly from the minisode is that Kan is experimenting with narrating stories about altered memories from the perspective of the patient. This could work really well, or really poorly.

Also, aren't there regulations on how the machine should be used? I doubt they would let anyone use the machine for altering any memory, though if the machine can be used to alter one's own memories, that would open up more possibilities.

Wouldn't that be really odd though? You're in the mind altering machine, looking at memories from your own life. You aren't happy with how they turned out in the end, and you want to change them, but at the same time, your mind resists your attempts to do this somehow, and you end up being puzzled over what to do.
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Amandaaa on February 19, 2015, 01:04:10 AM
I just spent a few minutes going back and NOT locking away Eva's diary in her office. Went back there with Neil to get this ominous-sounding diary entry!
Also, I wonder what role Neil's parents will play in all this.

Wait what does it mean in the diary entry when Eva mentions that someone's been following him?

Also I think Neil has like family troubles so he doesn't want to go home and hangs up when he calls his mom?


ALSO
on the main page it says

"However, since these new memories are permanent, the conflict between them and the existing authentic memories clash in such a way that it ceases the personís ability to properly function."

which is why they only do it on a persons deathbed and maybe why people are trying to stop Neil from accessing his own stuff or whatever
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Roxaszu on February 19, 2015, 04:27:48 AM
There's so many questions right now :o I hope they get answered in future episodes soon (or minisodes). I'd drop a theory here but I don't have anything at the moment :reivsweat:
Usually,
You'll find more question instead of answer.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: chrono721 on February 19, 2015, 04:57:28 AM
Just finished playing! So 2 things, 2 little hidden things...

Spoiler: show


1. If you leave Eva's diary out, you can read it as Niel. She states that she feels like she's being watched.
2. When you're Eva, and you're trying to locate Niel, you can take a detour to the power room and check the access records. You find out that Niel himself shut off the power. Maybe some part of Niel doesn't want to leave her mind?



My theory here is that Niel is somehow stuck inside Eva's mind and is unable to come out. The glitch that Eva experienced may be the reason why. Perhaps Niel figures that the only possible way to leave is to use the same technology that brought him there. Real or not, it may change something if the real machine interprets it the way Niel wants.

As for being in Eva's mind... maybe he was trying to help her out with something? Maybe Eva was a past employee and called up a favor from Niel? This could be about anything really. His prolonged stay inside her mind may be tough on him, which is the big reason for the pain killers.

This has me excited for episode 2! It has me wondering how many episodes total this story will be.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: A Fat Kid on February 19, 2015, 09:24:13 AM
Oh my goodness, this is messed up. I need a couple more weeks to think it through.

But why would either of them change their memories? It's a lethal process!

Oh man, so much to think about.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Abrom on February 19, 2015, 09:37:58 AM
Just finished playing! So 2 things, 2 little hidden things...

Spoiler: show


1. If you leave Eva's diary out, you can read it as Niel. She states that she feels like she's being watched.
2. When you're Eva, and you're trying to locate Niel, you can take a detour to the power room and check the access records. You find out that Niel himself shut off the power. Maybe some part of Niel doesn't want to leave her mind?



My theory here is that Niel is somehow stuck inside Eva's mind and is unable to come out. The glitch that Eva experienced may be the reason why. Perhaps Niel figures that the only possible way to leave is to use the same technology that brought him there. Real or not, it may change something if the real machine interprets it the way Niel wants.

As for being in Eva's mind... maybe he was trying to help her out with something? Maybe Eva was a past employee and called up a favor from Niel? This could be about anything really. His prolonged stay inside her mind may be tough on him, which is the big reason for the pain killers.

This has me excited for episode 2! It has me wondering how many episodes total this story will be.
That's a pretty good theory :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Roxaszu on February 19, 2015, 12:22:23 PM
Ahh,
I don't usually make theory.
I usually just enjoy the story :)

But as for me,

What I think is just simply that they are in the real world,

Neil kinda forget something really important from the past on why "Something" happened in his family that he forgot and wanna to find out by the machine.

Eva using the machine too much,
Therefore she got something like side effects in her brain or something that made her forgetful and hallucinating.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Dragon Mage on February 19, 2015, 01:33:34 PM
Ahh,
I don't usually make theory.
I usually just enjoy the story :)

But as for me,

What I think is just simply that they are in the real world,

Neil kinda forget something really important from the past on why "Something" happened in his family that he forgot and wanna to find out by the machine.

Eva using the machine too much,
Therefore she got something like side effects in her brain or something that made her forgetful and hallucinating.
Thay's a pretty good theory :) I don't want to think that everything that's happening is in a memory, it just doesn't seen right to me :(
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Roxaszu on February 19, 2015, 03:32:36 PM
Ahh,
I don't usually make theory.
I usually just enjoy the story :)

But as for me,

What I think is just simply that they are in the real world,

Neil kinda forget something really important from the past on why "Something" happened in his family that he forgot and wanna to find out by the machine.

Eva using the machine too much,
Therefore she got something like side effects in her brain or something that made her forgetful and hallucinating.
Thay's a pretty good theory :) I don't want to think that everything that's happening is in a memory, it just doesn't seen right to me :(

Yup,

I think it's not a memory at all.
Since the story is separated,
So even if that is a memory, it should be memory from both sides in one machine.
otherwise, the story will not be possible.

(Like TTM, It's Johnny's memory, there's no memory from River itself, therefore there's no way it's a memory, since it's the story of Neil and Eva Separately, therefore I think It's the real world)

Not to mention that Neil didn't know who turn off the big thing under the lobby, and Eva was surprises and asking herself why Neil turn on and turn off that thing (I forgot what is it)

If It's one of their memory, that should be at least know something instead of asking themselves.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Frostyflytrap on February 19, 2015, 10:11:17 PM
Some of my own theories are pretty similar to most of the one the others have already put down here. But I've also been thinking if what if they're in one of those scrapped memories that end up getting reset? It's like in that movie Source Code if anyone else knows the ending to that.
Spoiler: show
In the ending the main character saves the people on the train in an alternate simulation world and on his last minute his life support was shut off just as he reached the last of his time limit of being in the simulation. As that happened hi lived on in an alternate world, in the simulation.


However I don't think that's likely. What I do think is someone is manually altering the world they're in (if their world takes place in a memory canvas) so that a specific thing would happen in the future. Eva's diary does say she feels like she's being followed, meaning this has been going on for quite a while now. (Note that Neil at the end of TtM taking his painkillers where the screen flashes red could represent being in a memory or just a metaphor for pain.)

If what's really happening is that Eva and Neil are both using the memory machine on themselves, (Seeing how there's only one person with a helmet in both cases.) Then the fact that there are people opposing the Sigmund Agency, perhaps Eva in the future with the helmet on might have been regretful for ever working there. Or maybe in the future the agency was shut down and she kept one of the memory machines and used it just as Neil was trying to.

Neil seems to be persistent and protective over whatever he's planning to do as if he's doing something forbidden. When you go turn the power back on as Neil and to the meeting room and interact with the memory machine there he mentions it as "could've been a miracle" in an unsatisfied manner. (Is it just that he knows the capabilities of the machine yet they're forbidden to use it that way?)

And to whoever mentioned that butterfly effect thing, yes someone might be preventing Neil from ever succeeding at his experiment and it seems to be him 8 minutes ago. When he went on hitting Eva with a broom in the face, he said that the door was locked. Why would Eva lock the door behind her if she's expecting her family, Rox and Lilly's family to come inside?

I've just realized something. What if Eva already went home and it was the doppelganger seen in the street that materialized her family and Lily's to the agency? If the door was locked, which Neil noticed, and then the Eva who was hit with a broom was the Eva sitting on her chair in a room? Since she asked why Neil turned the power off and on, she might not even be the Chair Eva from the future. It's possible right?

Whatever reasons that someone is altering that memory, it must've done something drastic in the future. However it seems illogical to change a memory to prevent something from happening in the real life unless Neil discovered that the machine was reality-altering device all along.

Whatever this is, I think this Neil and Eva side-plot won't be resolved in Finding Paradise assuming the series will be a trilogy or longer. I have a feeling that Kan is carefully planning out these plot holes for the grand finale.

Other things I noticed:
-Why was the ambient sound player recording in the ending?
-What was Eva going to say to Neil that "If you want..."? (I actually think that she's considering inviting Neil to her place in this part.)
-Neil Being speechless about Eva's diary entry seems suspicious.
-Are someone's footsteps heard exiting the basement, or was someone entering the lobby?
-Does the exit door naturally make no sound while opening and closing, or did someone just phase though the door but was still able to leave snowy footprints and loud footsteps?

-And also, cool window wiper at the beginning. So all the windows in the building have that installed? :P
-That sound file from Quintessence was hilarious.

Well this was a long post.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Sun on February 20, 2015, 01:30:53 PM
-Why was the ambient sound player recording in the ending?

Assumption: It's Neil's device, so he has turned it on. He did so because while he first said he didn't want to come and participate, he actually likes being invited to a private Christmas party by Eva (and he's clearly enjoying himself once there, too) and he wants to keep a memory of the evening. After all, we've seen it before that Neil will put on a show about not being sentimental when in reality, he totally is.

Edited to add: Although I think when he first told Eva to never do something like that again, he was serious. There is something troubling hidden behind the clown mask Neil's wearing.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Amandaaa on February 20, 2015, 02:27:23 PM
Found this opinion on Cry's walkthrough:
"Okay, so first off, freeze frame that last bit. If you see everything, and watched or played the first game, you know what the machines are used for. If you know of their purpose, you must know she could be in there on purpose. And Isn it funny, how small her room is? How empty and cluttered it is? This Christmas isn't real. It's an altered memory, or even a fabricated one. I don't think her real Christmas is a happy one. We all saw the Eva in the street. We know that usually, Drs are invisible in the memories, unless they choose to be otherwise. Eva shouldn't have been visible. Which means something is up. I also think that Neil was trying to stop her from something, hence the generator shutoff. Puzzle pieces. Lots of tiny puzzle pieces. " (creds to TheAetherpunk)

but yea i think its tru :O
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Abrom on February 20, 2015, 03:03:00 PM
-Why was the ambient sound player recording in the ending?

Assumption: It's Neil's device, so he has turned it on. He did so because while he first said he didn't want to come and participate, he actually likes being invited to a private Christmas party by Eva (and he's clearly enjoying himself once there, too) and he wants to keep a memory of the evening. After all, we've seen it before that Neil will put on a show about not being sentimental when in reality, he totally is.

Edited to add: Although I think when he first told Eva to never do something like that again, he was serious. There is something troubling hidden behind the clown mask Neil's wearing.
I'm also now thinking that, much like the music boxes, Kan is going to be selling some ambient sound machines, with some of the soothing sounds we've heard, along with music. Seriously. It just seems like there was a lot of focus on such a small thing, with a similar purpose to the music boxes.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Eastwardly on February 20, 2015, 07:47:07 PM
I just thought:
* Eva is obviously using the Machine, as we can see in the last clip. We can see Neil planning to use it, but he doesn't.
* Eva feels as if someone is watching her, witch leads on to the probability that someone is going through her memories (even altering, since she can feel someone in witch she shouldn't have?)
* Eva sees herself and even wakes up in the Machine, but quickly calms down as if she knows what's going on.

Its obviously a lot of possible outcomes here. My personal theory is that maybe Neil went to go through his memories that evening, thus possibly killing himself (or becoming a vegetable)? due to the family problems, painkiller addiction and possible other things creating depression. Christmas evening suicides is a kind of cliche (even as horrible as that sounds).
Then Eva felt extreme guilt of not inviting him to the party (as she almost did) and thus eventually went back through her memories to, at least in her head, unplug the power and save Neil.

The thing is; why logging into the generator-thingy as Neil? And why would Neil act the way he did if it was all in Evas head? And why the melancholic use of the recorder on Neils side if its Evas memories we are going through?

I really liked this minisode.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Erenussocrates on February 21, 2015, 02:02:29 AM
I just thought:
* Eva is obviously using the Machine, as we can see in the last clip. We can see Neil planning to use it, but he doesn't.
* Eva feels as if someone is watching her, witch leads on to the probability that someone is going through her memories (even altering, since she can feel someone in witch she shouldn't have?)
* Eva sees herself and even wakes up in the Machine, but quickly calms down as if she knows what's going on.

Its obviously a lot of possible outcomes here. My personal theory is that maybe Neil went to go through his memories that evening, thus possibly killing himself (or becoming a vegetable)? due to the family problems, painkiller addiction and possible other things creating depression. Christmas evening suicides is a kind of cliche (even as horrible as that sounds).
Then Eva felt extreme guilt of not inviting him to the party (as she almost did) and thus eventually went back through her memories to, at least in her head, unplug the power and save Neil.

The thing is; why logging into the generator-thingy as Neil? And why would Neil act the way he did if it was all in Evas head? And why the melancholic use of the recorder on Neils side if its Evas memories we are going through?

I really liked this minisode.


^ Most solid theories I've read here as of yet, imo. It's definitely plausible. Even though eva trying to change her own memories doesn't make much sense to me, but that's just one point.

-----------------

Meanwhile, talking about ambient sounds recorder, I am more curious about something else right now...
You know that Dr. Willis and Taima and beach sounds scene in the minisode... x'D There had been a joke/smalltalk in a topic called "Why do you think they never had kids?" that went like:

Quote
I'm actually more curious about their sex life (don't look at me)
If river was acting like not approachable for their whole lives, maybe that was the reason. Though I cannot imagine the pain and suffering john would have to go through, lol. Maybe because of her condition, she was just afraid and insecure to do such a physically intimate thing, or maybe she was really conscious and just didn't want any of their kids to inherit her condition maybe.

Or who knows, maybe she actually had natural urges as well, and they were doing that, but simply did not want to have any kids. (I don't know if condom was invented in their time, in that universe)
So I'm more curious about if they were having sex or not, more than the reason why they didn't have kids. That would clarify a lot of things :P


Quote
Lol, you hear that, Kan? Gotta add some sex scenes in To The Moon now. Don't leave us hanging


here's the link http://freebirdgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=4675.30 (http://freebirdgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=4675.30) it's the third page.

What I am wondering is, if truly Kan had seen that conversation, and if that Willis and Taima scene was a small reference to us there? X'DD
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: The Receiver on February 21, 2015, 04:20:29 AM
Just finished watching Cry's playthrough on this Minisode :)

I've been reading the other theories here, so I'll try to piece together what's happening.
TL:DR POST POSSIBLY INCOMING (PLUS RAMBLINGS!)

Let's start with what I feel is the only fact in the minisode:
The last scene with Eva and the machine lets us know that she's the one using the machine for the whole minisode.

That for me is the only solid fact I believe in.

Now as for the whole Christmas party dealio, I assume it's only a memory considering said fact and Eva is trying to achieve something in that memory in relation to Neil in the real world.

Some questions bother me though. For example, as we do not fully understand how the device works, are there any more purposes for the device? Or are there any more usages? Like can two people access a memory at the same time but from separate places? Is the Sigmund Company keeping memories of their patients meaning the workers can access them any time? But if that's the case is Neil a patient? Or is Neil already a dead patient? Cause the comment Eva said on how "We don't keep memories on disks" gives that kinda feeling. Does that mean workers keep their patients' memories but on somewhere else?

So on and so forth.

As for the gift Eva gave to Neil, do you guys think that the reason it showed that it was recording in the credits would be so that in a later minisode/To The Moon Episode 2, the device will be used one day to be listened to, find out what's going on during that time, and might even hear some unheard stuff that only devices can capture? Much like how some supernatural stuff happens.

As for the double Eva's, I feel like in the first half of the minisode, the player plays as the Eva who goes into the car. But in the latter half, the player plays as the OtherEva that CarEva saw, meaning OtherEva materialized those guests that came and so the Christmas party wasn't really a real one. OtherEva might have made the memory repeat during the car part, cause Traci said the same comment twice in a row (Okaaayyyyyy, I'll see ya later hun!) Something like that. OtherEva might have also been the one that walked in which Neil smacked into, and the door was locked meaning since she isn't really part of the memory, she could just walk through it.  Finally, relate back to said fact that Eva was using the machine as OtherEva trying to achieve something. She could've gotten Neil's Identification Card in the real world (Or find out what the info needed to log in as Neil Watts) and used that to shut down the power system in order to stop Neil from whatever it is he was trying to do for the 30th time. This is why Neil got confused and thought it was a glitch. OtherEva was also asking lotsa questions to Neil, especially the part about his family. She could've been trying to make Neil happier at the same time even if it was just a memory (Hence the Xmas party).

About the weird Diary entry that CarEva made about a nagging feeling that someone's following her, this could be OtherEva and that she's been in the memory for a while now, observing what's up. Or relate back to one of my questions about not fully understanding and knowing the full usage of the device. What if Neil's also accessing the memory at the same time and observing CarEva and the memory in itself?

P.S. It could also be that Neil's already dead in the real world and Eva's trying to find out why and understand through Neil's memories. Or Neil's in the hospital or coma or something. Or Neil's been doing suspicious activities in the real world like the painkillers so Eva's trying to find out what's up.

It could also be that the Sigmund Company records all their worker's memories before they are allowed to work, hence why the memory was clear without any black and white or torn parts.

Again we still do not know the full usage of the machine.

That's basically my observation and theory :)

Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Abrom on February 21, 2015, 09:57:12 AM
Quote
What I am wondering is, if truly Kan had seen that conversation, and if that Willis and Taima scene was a small reference to us there? X'DD
Oh god, I sure hope not.

Quote
As for the gift Eva gave to Neil, do you guys think that the reason it showed that it was recording in the credits would be so that in a later minisode/To The Moon Episode 2, the device will be used one day to be listened to, find out what's going on during that time, and might even hear some unheard stuff that only devices can capture? Much like how some supernatural stuff happens.
Ohhh, I like that idea! :)

Quote
OtherEva might have made the memory repeat during the car part, cause Traci said the same comment twice in a row (Okaaayyyyyy, I'll see ya later hun!
I don't think I would read into that too much. A lot of people say goodbye the same way everytime, out of habit. As for it being EXACTLY the same, well, maybe Kan and the playtesters didn't really make the connection and see it as strange. But, maybe I'm wrong, and you're actually onto something.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Peedator on February 21, 2015, 08:33:32 PM
I just wanted to ask if there will be a german translation of this minosode. I really would like to play this in german. :vikonsmile:
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Thunderbird on February 21, 2015, 09:04:03 PM
I just wanted to ask if there will be a german translation of this minosode. I really would like to play this in german. :vikonsmile:

Yes, but it will probably take a little while, because I currently have some other things on my mind (have to move next weekend and currently doing some stuff for the open source project). ETA for the start of the translation is in ~2 weeks.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Erenussocrates on February 23, 2015, 04:33:40 PM
Quote
What I am wondering is, if truly Kan had seen that conversation, and if that Willis and Taima scene was a small reference to us there? X'DD
Oh god, I sure hope not.

Hahahah, why hope not. Nothing bad about it :p
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Abrom on February 24, 2015, 06:08:22 PM
I don't think it's a reference to it, but if it was, of all the things that could have been referenced...why that? It was just so ridiculous.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Erenussocrates on February 24, 2015, 07:17:02 PM
c'moon you are just mean... lol
It was a lovely funny brief moment that we had together, maybe kan saw that :P
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Llefty on February 25, 2015, 04:26:56 AM
I think all these theories are plausible, but what if nobody is in the machine at all? Much of the minisode could be due to hallucinations caused by extended use of the machine. It seems to be an experimental technology, so there could be unforeseen psychological side effects on those who use it for too long. Perhaps Eve and Neil are going through what Dom Cobb went through in Inception - losing their ability to tell what is real. They became so absorbed with the machine that they could no longer differentiate memories and reality, so the two were blurred together.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Peedator on March 06, 2015, 03:33:18 AM
Quote
Yes, but it will probably take a little while, because I currently have some other things on my mind (have to move next weekend and currently doing some stuff for the open source project). ETA for the start of the translation is in ~2 weeks.
That sounds great! I just think that this game is (for german native speakers) more emotional. If you need help just tell me:3
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: darkknight109 on March 12, 2015, 01:36:36 AM
A very intriguing episode - definitely has me wanting more.

Something I noticed: if you examine the machine in the meeting room while controlling Eva, she points out that it's the thing that makes their job possible; examine the same machine as Neil, and he remarks on what a horrible waste of potential it represents.

So Neil's trying to make the machine do something it wasn't originally intended to do. Perhaps to view the memories of others, rather than just rewriting your own?

Call it a hunch, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Neil is going to die before the series is over and this episode might be revealed as Eva going back and looking through his memories after the fact.

Wherever she was in the final scene, she wasn't in her usual labcoat, so I suspect that's Neil's variant of the machine that she's using.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: kie1 on April 05, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
just a quick idea i though up in the showers:

First of all, lets try to understand why Eva did the mem alt, From TtM, we have learnt that once a mem alt is complete and uploaded, its practically a death sentence to its patient. so there must been a major reason for Eva to look through her own memories. Its very possible that Neil died or something very bad happened to him, as we know that Eva cares a whole lot about our guy, even if she doesn't really show it. So it could be that Eva is trying to alter her memories so that she will not be so upset when the news hit.

Second, Eva's real room. She was the only one plugged in, but we could play as Eva or Neil. Remember from TtM, where Eva told use that 'River in this memory is purely based on Johnny's view, because she isn't in our database.' Well What if Neil is the date here? Since he worked in Sigma, it wound't surprise me if they have a detailed copy of Neil's neuro patterns. Maybe its so detailed that it could be a AI, or he's memories is plugged in to a AI main frame. This would explain why we get to play as both Doctors but only Eva is actually plugged in.

Third of all, What is Neil up to? what ever he's been doing, he has been met with a brick wall. 30 times, every time he failed. If he is in Eva's memories, as a experienced operator, he would know if this is the real world or not, or at least have some slight suspicion of the trueness of it. Thus he set to work on proving it. But remember how he is just a AI? well i think that the system and Eva's mind is blocking it as someone before said that "The machine cannot handle a second layer of simulation." And other Eva's attempt of stopping herself seeing Neil trying to access his memories because that would in turn make herself doubt this world and then snowball in to a system crash.

Lastly, Eva seeing Other Eva. This could be a result of the constant Neil AI battling with Eva's mind and the machine. 30 times is alot, and from what the story is telling us, these guys don't get alot of breaks so this must have stretched through a long period of time. This long battle could damage both the machine and Eva's mind, which would explain why Eva saw herself, the glitch at the end and how the machine failed to hide Other Eva's track and Eva is feeling it as the 'invisible stalker'.

The next chapter is going to be VERY interesting, as we might see the Past self question the future self of its motive, an AI trying to find its place in a made up world and is the whole mem alt business really as humain as we thought.

Whatever it is, count me in as this mini episode just drew me waaaaaaay down the rabbit hole.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Abrom on April 05, 2015, 11:40:05 AM
just a quick idea i though up in the showers:

First of all, lets try to understand why Eva did the mem alt, From TtM, we have learnt that once a mem alt is complete and uploaded, its practically a death sentence to its patient. so there must been a major reason for Eva to look through her own memories. Its very possible that Neil died or something very bad happened to him, as we know that Eva cares a whole lot about our guy, even if she doesn't really show it. So it could be that Eva is trying to alter her memories so that she will not be so upset when the news hit.

Second, Eva's real room. She was the only one plugged in, but we could play as Eva or Neil. Remember from TtM, where Eva told use that 'River in this memory is purely based on Johnny's view, because she isn't in our database.' Well What if Neil is the date here? Since he worked in Sigma, it wound't surprise me if they have a detailed copy of Neil's neuro patterns. Maybe its so detailed that it could be a AI, or he's memories is plugged in to a AI main frame. This would explain why we get to play as both Doctors but only Eva is actually plugged in.

Third of all, What is Neil up to? what ever he's been doing, he has been met with a brick wall. 30 times, every time he failed. If he is in Eva's memories, as a experienced operator, he would know if this is the real world or not, or at least have some slight suspicion of the trueness of it. Thus he set to work on proving it. But remember how he is just a AI? well i think that the system and Eva's mind is blocking it as someone before said that "The machine cannot handle a second layer of simulation." And other Eva's attempt of stopping herself seeing Neil trying to access his memories because that would in turn make herself doubt this world and then snowball in to a system crash.

Lastly, Eva seeing Other Eva. This could be a result of the constant Neil AI battling with Eva's mind and the machine. 30 times is alot, and from what the story is telling us, these guys don't get alot of breaks so this must have stretched through a long period of time. This long battle could damage both the machine and Eva's mind, which would explain why Eva saw herself, the glitch at the end and how the machine failed to hide Other Eva's track and Eva is feeling it as the 'invisible stalker'.

The next chapter is going to be VERY interesting, as we might see the Past self question the future self of its motive, an AI trying to find its place in a made up world and is the whole mem alt business really as humain as we thought.

Whatever it is, count me in as this mini episode just drew me waaaaaaay down the rabbit hole.
I would not doubt it if this is what the story's building up to. Seems pretty logical for the To The Moon world.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Wonderfulakari on May 31, 2015, 11:17:00 PM
It seems to me like Neil Watts was altering some equipment while he was alone.  Judging by the fact he waited for everyone to leave this is either highly illegal or would get him fired but obviously it was important to him.

At the end we see Eva alone with some equipment with no patients or doctors nearby... Just her.  I was thinking maybe this is the very same equipment Neil was fiddling with.  It has been modified to do something other than to explore and change someone else's memories.  Maybe Neil gets caught doing something fishy and Eva gets wrapped up in his business somehow and puts on the helmet to see why Neil modified it.

Maybe Neils apparent illness or pain is caused by something other than chance disease and he knows he's in trouble which is why he called either a parent or possibility grandparent.
Title: Re: Minisode 2
Post by: Wonderfulakari on May 31, 2015, 11:24:41 PM
P.S. - Just thought of this - What if Neil isn't actually dying, but WAS dying. Maybe he was a patient, had his memories altered, and then pulled through. Maybe he has to take the painkillers to still deal with the effects of his near death experience. Maybe that's why someone was trying to stop him from accessing his own memories. But, why would Eva see herself? If this was the case, then when Neil would have accessed his own memories, that would have messed him up pretty bad. Maybe Eva is trying to alter her own memories to do away with that. OH, THE POSSIBILITIES!
On this last part it would explain why Eva and he have different accounts of that school play.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: turkizhere on December 15, 2015, 07:30:54 AM
It seems to me like Neil Watts was altering some equipment while he was alone.  Judging by the fact he waited for everyone to leave this is either highly illegal or would get him fired but obviously it was important to him.

At the end we see Eva alone with some equipment with no patients or doctors nearby... Just her.  I was thinking maybe this is the very same equipment Neil was fiddling with.  It has been modified to do something other than to explore and change someone else's memories.  Maybe Neil gets caught doing something fishy and Eva gets wrapped up in his business somehow and puts on the helmet to see why Neil modified it.

Maybe Neils apparent illness or pain is caused by something other than chance disease and he knows he's in trouble which is why he called either a parent or possibility grandparent.


But what if 7/11 was just a part-time job?
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Dragon Mage on December 15, 2015, 05:27:15 PM
It seems to me like Neil Watts was altering some equipment while he was alone.  Judging by the fact he waited for everyone to leave this is either highly illegal or would get him fired but obviously it was important to him.

At the end we see Eva alone with some equipment with no patients or doctors nearby... Just her.  I was thinking maybe this is the very same equipment Neil was fiddling with.  It has been modified to do something other than to explore and change someone else's memories.  Maybe Neil gets caught doing something fishy and Eva gets wrapped up in his business somehow and puts on the helmet to see why Neil modified it.

Maybe Neils apparent illness or pain is caused by something other than chance disease and he knows he's in trouble which is why he called either a parent or possibility grandparent.


But what if 7/11 was just a part-time job?
What's that got to do with it?

Quote from: rockingjohncarter
I really like your post dear. Nice stuff.
Idk why but I get the feeling this is a bot, judging by their signature.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: PlatPlat1408 on December 28, 2015, 05:30:05 AM
Something that I noticed (that's probably nothing important) is that the helmet we see being used by both Eva and Neil are seen with in minisode 2 are not the same helmets used in the actual to the moon game.  They are two different helmets.  Again, probably nothing important, but I just wanted to throw that out there.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: turkizhere on December 28, 2015, 01:51:56 PM
Something that I noticed (that's probably nothing important) is that the helmet we see being used by both Eva and Neil are seen with in minisode 2 are not the same helmets used in the actual to the moon game.  They are two different helmets.  Again, probably nothing important, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

Probably a customized helmet.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Dragon Mage on December 28, 2015, 04:31:59 PM
Something that I noticed (that's probably nothing important) is that the helmet we see being used by both Eva and Neil are seen with in minisode 2 are not the same helmets used in the actual to the moon game.  They are two different helmets.  Again, probably nothing important, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

Probably a customized helmet.
Maybe it's for special procedures or some people still in training.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Reives on December 29, 2015, 05:02:46 PM
That's a neat observation -- I'd hoped more folks would've recognized the different helmet thing. :) Wouldn't have expected of anything less from someone whose name begins with "PlatPlat" though!
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Midnight on December 14, 2016, 05:48:52 PM
I only just finished the Minisodes a few days ago, so I'm a little late for the party but I've made some observations that apparently, no one else has mentioned here so far and I'm too excited about to keep to myself. If someone else has already mentioned it and I missed it, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take credit for someone else's discovery.
Anyway, those observations strongly imply that someone (most likely Eva) is following us around invisible:

1. https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=1168 (https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=1168)
After Eva offers Neil to join them at the Christmas party and enters the building, she shuts the door. Notice how the camera pans to Neil as he tries to decide whether to leave or return. He moves a few steps away, looks back and then the camera pans back and centers over the door. The door opens without anyone visible from the outside.
Of course, this could be Eva opening it again from the inside as a way to invite him back in, but that does seem like an odd behavior to me. If that's her intention, why not leave it open to begin with? What if - instead - it's not this Eva but the one that she saw at the street before, that is entering the building? That she's been around invisible and inaudible the same way we are in TtM most of the time.
2. https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=1301 (https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=1301)
At the ominous after credits scene. The elevator doors open and Eva enters the lobby. She meets her sister and engages in a dialogue with her. She takes a few steps and asks Tracy if she can get a lift. Now the scene changes to her sitting in her room with the helmet on before going back to the lobby. Tracy agrees and they both leave the building. Notice how the camera once again pans to the still open(!) elevator door before it finally closes. Could it be that someone invisible was still in the elevator preventing it from closing the doors? Here's another scene of the same elevator for comparison: https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=262 (https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=262)

Both of those scenes seem way to deliberate to be coincidence if you ask me.

Unfortunately, I don't think this really tells us a lot. Mostly it just confirms what we already suspected: This is not strictly speaking the real world and Eva (and possibly also Neal) are following us around while watching and possibly changing stuff just like we did in TtM.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: EatingToastYay on December 14, 2016, 09:21:30 PM
I only just finished the Minisodes a few days ago, so I'm a little late for the party but I've made some observations that apparently, no one else has mentioned here so far and I'm too excited about to keep to myself. If someone else has already mentioned it and I missed it, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take credit for someone else's discovery.
Anyway, those observations strongly imply that someone (most likely Eva) is following us around invisible:

1. https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=1168 (https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=1168)
After Eva offers Neil to join them at the Christmas party and enters the building, she shuts the door. Notice how the camera pans to Neil as he tries to decide whether to leave or return. He moves a few steps away, looks back and then the camera pans back and centers over the door. The door opens without anyone visible from the outside.
Of course, this could be Eva opening it again from the inside as a way to invite him back in, but that does seem like an odd behavior to me. If that's her intention, why not leave it open to begin with? What if - instead - it's not this Eva but the one that she saw at the street before, that is entering the building? That she's been around invisible and inaudible the same way we are in TtM most of the time.
2. https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=1301 (https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=1301)
At the ominous after credits scene. The elevator doors open and Eva enters the lobby. She meets her sister and engages in a dialogue with her. She takes a few steps and asks Tracy if she can get a lift. Now the scene changes to her sitting in her room with the helmet on before going back to the lobby. Tracy agrees and they both leave the building. Notice how the camera once again pans to the still open(!) elevator door before it finally closes. Could it be that someone invisible was still in the elevator preventing it from closing the doors? Here's another scene of the same elevator for comparison: https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=262 (https://youtu.be/8G-Ilp_5UhU?t=262)

Both of those scenes seem way to deliberate to be coincidence if you ask me.

Unfortunately, I don't think this really tells us a lot. Mostly it just confirms what we already suspected: This is not strictly speaking the real world and Eva (and possibly also Neal) are following us around while watching and possibly changing stuff just like we did in TtM.

Did not think of that!! I thought the elevator closing later was just Kan's way of being creepy, but that could be the case. Although, don't the doctors typically turn off interactivity with the memory world if they are moving around so people don't see them opening and closing doors like ghosts and such? The one with Eva walking in front of the other Eva's car may have been an accident; Neil had to be reminded to toggle the visibility and interactivity on his avatar in To The Moon, for instance. But that doesn't really seem like something Eva would forget... Maybe Neil has found a way to change his appearance inside the memories so he can pretend to be other people when he needs to?

I'm starting to think along the lines of what other people have suggested, like Neil using Eva as a guinea pig since he figured that she'd discover what he was doing at some point, and trying to change her memories so that she doesn't recall what he's done. The odd thing is that it doesn't seem to be one sided - we can see both Eva and Neil's perspectives, whether or not what they see is what really happened. Does anyone else get vibes of like, Eva and Neil battling it out against each other, trying to stop the other from achieving their goal - maybe Neil is trying to keep Eva from discovering the truth about his machine and the painkillers, and Eva is trying to stop Neil from messing with her memories and wants to get to the bottom of the mystery? They clash a lot within the game and the minisodes, and it seems fitting that their over-arching plot would also involve conflict with their characters.
Title: Re: Thoughts on Minisode 2
Post by: Midnight on December 15, 2016, 06:36:46 AM
Quote
Did not think of that!! I thought the elevator closing later was just Kan's way of being creepy, but that could be the case. Although, don't the doctors typically turn off interactivity with the memory world if they are moving around so people don't see them opening and closing doors like ghosts and such? The one with Eva walking in front of the other Eva's car may have been an accident; Neil had to be reminded to toggle the visibility and interactivity on his avatar in To The Moon, for instance. But that doesn't really seem like something Eva would forget... Maybe Neil has found a way to change his appearance inside the memories so he can pretend to be other people when he needs to?
Yes I was wondering about the interactivity too, but the game has already taken some liberty with its depiction of "interactivity off" so it's not such a big stretch. We usually are still are obstructed by most objects in TtM even when interactivity is turned off (e.g. having to walk around the tables and kids at school or not being able to enter the cafeteria through its closed door). Part of this probably just for game mechanic reasons in order to keep the player on a certain path but I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to come up with a logical explanation for it either.
Besides if you wanted to drop subtle hints at someone following you invisibly, to me this sounds like a good way to go. Also it fits with the other hints like Eva appearing and disappearing on the road and her diary stating that she feels followed. So bottom line is: I stand by my original interpretation.

Quote
I'm starting to think along the lines of what other people have suggested, like Neil using Eva as a guinea pig since he figured that she'd discover what he was doing at some point, and trying to change her memories so that she doesn't recall what he's done. The odd thing is that it doesn't seem to be one sided - we can see both Eva and Neil's perspectives, whether or not what they see is what really happened. Does anyone else get vibes of like, Eva and Neil battling it out against each other, trying to stop the other from achieving their goal - maybe Neil is trying to keep Eva from discovering the truth about his machine and the painkillers, and Eva is trying to stop Neil from messing with her memories and wants to get to the bottom of the mystery? They clash a lot within the game and the minisodes, and it seems fitting that their over-arching plot would also involve conflict with their characters.
I'm still way too confused to make accurate predictions of what exactly is happening and what the motivations behind it are but... as theories go, I think this one is pretty good. The idea of Eva and Neil battling it out within someones memories, does feel like a believable idea to me.