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Episode 1: To the Moon => To the Moon - Discussions => Topic started by: billbaggins on January 16, 2014, 12:14:35 PM

Title: Ending Plothole
Post by: billbaggins on January 16, 2014, 12:14:35 PM
I just finished TTM yesterday and of course cried for a good duration of it.

Today, I was thinking about the story and came to realize something.

If Eva went back and saved Joey, why did Johnny never go back to the carnival to see River?

Since there was no traumatic death of Joey, Johnny would never have been given beta blockers to lose his memories.  Yet it seems as though he was given them;  He never went back for River at the carnival the next year, he has no recollection of River in school,  and only seems to want to go to the moon for his own sake and not to see River.  Unless I'm misunderstanding everything, it seems plotholeish.

I don't see how the Beta blockers are supposed to have affected the new memories Johnny remakes when Joey is saved.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: q on January 16, 2014, 12:24:42 PM
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He never went back for River at the carnival the next year
We don't know why. Maybe he was grounded, maybe Joey didn't want to go, maybe he went and they missed each other, maybe he was ill... or maybe he even went, but River didn't show up. That's no plothole.

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he has no recollection of River in school
Why do you think that?

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and only seems to want to go to the moon for his own sake and not to see River.
No, he wants to go to meet River again :)
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Merlandese on January 16, 2014, 01:38:04 PM
He didn't go back to see River because he still never remembered the carnival. His memories were changed after a certain point, but everything before the beta blockers was still locked. The game makes it seem like it's a story about time travle, but you have to remember that it's not. There is still "damage" done to Johnny's brain by the blockers, and they can't undo that. So when he lived his "second life," he never went back to the carnival because he didn't physically remember that that's what he needed to do.

It's not a plot hole, it's just a bit tough to understand, especially when looked at like some sort of time travel plot, which it's not. :)
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Sun on January 16, 2014, 02:19:50 PM
To add to Merlandese's post, he still wants to go to the moon for the same reason as at the beginning: The memory of making that promise to River is still inside him, just not consciously accessible.
To Johnny in the new memory, it may feel like he just really, really wants to go to the moon, but the subconscious motivation is wanting to be with the girl he met at the carnival/his wife.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Unimaginative Username on January 16, 2014, 07:00:45 PM
I expect that since the doctors used the machine to get into the "blocked" memories and the reconstruction is made partially of the old memories with the  necessary desires to achieve, you can presume that the machine does take a log of these past memories - since the doctors were able to get to the carnival memories you can assume that the machine can archive them too as they weren't blocked at the time of viewing.

However, it is not only the desire to go to the moon that was added - the past was changed so that Joey did not die - and since remembering the carnival would make John's trip to the moon pointless you can also assume that the past was altered so that he either forgot the carnival, or an event happened so he could not return to it again (maybe there were too many gypsies and their crusty jugglers). That way Joey can survive and John still vaguely remembers the meeting at the carnival making him want to go to the moon.

I think that makes more sense than him forgetting his childhood again, I don't believe beta blockers in the past life would affect the second if the memories have already been accessed and saved by the machine - I expect that is what other people have issues with too, and understandably so.


I guess this part can be fairly open to interpretation though.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: GamingPoint on January 17, 2014, 11:10:34 AM
Been a long time since I played the game, but didn't they remove river or something?
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: billbaggins on January 17, 2014, 01:46:08 PM
We don't know why. Maybe he was grounded, maybe Joey didn't want to go, maybe he went and they missed each other, maybe he was ill... or maybe he even went, but River didn't show up. That's no plothole.

It's a unexplained event in the story.  Every suggestion you made was not mentioned by the game so I can't accept them.  Wouldn't he want to go back to see her?  There is no resolution to it and if it's not a plothole then it's at least a loose end.

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Why do you think that?

After thinking about that more, that isn't an issue.  The scene in the school where River disappears takes place before Joey is saved. 

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No, he wants to go to meet River again :)

I'm pretty sure it's all subconscious still, which is my point.  They never mention he knew her and I'm pretty sure the "Aha, I remember you" moment comes at the point right before Johnny dies, which is what made it such a beautiful ending.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: billbaggins on January 17, 2014, 01:50:29 PM
I expect that since the doctors used the machine to get into the "blocked" memories and the reconstruction is made partially of the old memories with the  necessary desires to achieve, you can presume that the machine does take a log of these past memories - since the doctors were able to get to the carnival memories you can assume that the machine can archive them too as they weren't blocked at the time of viewing.

However, it is not only the desire to go to the moon that was added - the past was changed so that Joey did not die - and since remembering the carnival would make John's trip to the moon pointless you can also assume that the past was altered so that he either forgot the carnival, or an event happened so he could not return to it again (maybe there were too many gypsies and their crusty jugglers). That way Joey can survive and John still vaguely remembers the meeting at the carnival making him want to go to the moon.

I think that makes more sense than him forgetting his childhood again, I don't believe beta blockers in the past life would affect the second if the memories have already been accessed and saved by the machine - I expect that is what other people have issues with too, and understandably so.


I guess this part can be fairly open to interpretation though.

Exactly.  My problem though is that I can't accept the lack of explanation for forgetting River and the Carnival.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: billbaggins on January 17, 2014, 02:04:23 PM
BTW sorry if I might be going against rules here and triple posting but I'm unsure about how the quote system here works.

He didn't go back to see River because he still never remembered the carnival. His memories were changed after a certain point, but everything before the beta blockers was still locked. The game makes it seem like it's a story about time travle, but you have to remember that it's not. There is still "damage" done to Johnny's brain by the blockers, and they can't undo that. So when he lived his "second life," he never went back to the carnival because he didn't physically remember that that's what he needed to do.

It's not a plot hole, it's just a bit tough to understand, especially when looked at like some sort of time travel plot, which it's not. :)

Here's the problem I see with the Beta Blockers.

Eva and Watt aren't rewriting his old memories, they're creating a new series of them.  Wouldn't new memories take place in new neurons / locations in the brain than the old ones, untouched by the "Beta Block"? 

Been a long time since I played the game, but didn't they remove river or something?

Yes, but they don't remove her until after the Carnival meeting; they remove her at the school before Johnny asks her out.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Reives on January 17, 2014, 04:25:36 PM
Hey Bill. The issue that's causing the issue you're having is stemmed from that last assumption you posted, though I don't blame you as that's what the game visually showed at one point. I'm on a plane at the moment (10 hour ride, ahhh), but I'll try to elaborate when I settle down later this weekend :)
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Sun on January 17, 2014, 05:49:13 PM
Here's the problem I see with the Beta Blockers.

Eva and Watt aren't rewriting his old memories, they're creating a new series of them.  Wouldn't new memories take place in new neurons / locations in the brain than the old ones, untouched by the "Beta Block"? 

Let's ask the question a bit differently. Where do John's new memories come from?
It's not clearly said in the game, so we can only deduce and speculate.

a) They don't come from anywhere: John imagines everything from scratch
What I think: No. If that were the case, why do a lot of the same things as before happen? How likely is it that he can just imagine the same things even though he hasn't seen them "yet" in this new memory? He meets River, Nicolas and Isabel again (how does he know what they will look like in the future - they look the same as in real life; also, he had not met Izzy yet when he was a child), they build the same house in the same place again, they meet in the same pub again, only this time with his brother. If he generated everything himself from scratch, wouldn't it be more likely that he'd have a wildly different life where e.g. he moves to the big city and gets to know different people? And how would he know that River is called River when she had not told him her name at that point?

b) They are entirely generated in the machine.
What I think: No again. Neil already told old Johnny that what they do is only to implant a "registered desire" in his early memories. From that, I conclude that they cannot alter his memory directly. Also, if they could, there would be no plot: They could just generate his moon trip directly.

c) They are both imagined by Johnny (from scratch) and drawn from his original memories
What I think: To me, that seems the most likely way it works. If everything came just from his memories, nothing new could be in there. He could not go to NASA and to the moon because in real life, he's never been there. And if everything were entirely from scratch, it would most likely be entirely different from his real life - see above. And like I said, I don't think the machine can just put new things into his head at will - also see above. Though there is some interaction with the machine as it supplies him with some data for places he hasn't seen yet (what Neil and Eva mention in regard to whether NASA looks like it would in real life), it's not entirely clear how far it goes.
So, if parts of his new memory are drawn from his old memory, where would he take the memory of the carnival meeting from? He would have to draw it from his own brain. And in his own brain, that memory has been unlinked ever since he took the betablockers, so it's not accessible to him. That's why even in the new memory, he cannot just make the effects of the betablockers disappear.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: adroit9 on January 18, 2014, 10:14:33 PM
There is no plot hole.

Why does John want to go the moon in the first place?  River died, AKA she left him, AKA they were to meet up on the moon.  But John doesn't remember exactly why.  If he did, do you think he would actually want to physically go to the moon?  Thinking rationally, no one would think going to the moon would bring back one's dead wife, nor would it help you get the girl you met that one time when you were kids.  It's a subconscious desire manifesting as John's dying wish.

So, how do Eva and Neil go about making John will himself to the moon, and yet still end up with River, AND save Joey?  They can't have John go back to the carnival, for starters.  If he did, why would he become an astronaut and go to the moon?  Remember, it's not rational to think that that would work to get River back.  This has to be a subconscious desire.  And the only way to do that is to keep the carnival memory blocked.  That's why John never goes back, and that's why he doesn't remember her at school.  At least, not right away.

I like to think everything clicks for John right at the end, that he remembers all of it and sees the big picture, like we do.  It's a beautiful story.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Teddy on January 19, 2014, 04:53:20 AM
We know from Neil's words that the memory machine can't implant completely fabricated memories, because the mind of the patient will reject them. It can only nudge the memories along through subtle changes, such as transfering a desire from old age to childhood, or change small but fundamental aspects such as a few students dragging River away with them, or the car somehow not being run over by the car. The rest is done by the mind of the patient, which, aided by a extensive wiki, uses his or her imagination to build new memories.

My hypothesis for why the same characters and places reoccur in the reconstructed memories even when much of the rest changes is that the patient is still the very same person as before, with but a slight change to her or his personality (if any), and the memories are still there, so instead of creating new memories from scratch to remember events which already happened, the patient rather changes his or her old memories of these enemies to account for the change. After all, the only people that can be brought into new memories are those the patient remembers or which are in the public domain, everyone else will just be a grey shade.

As a piece of evidence for this, we've got the fact that River still cuts her hair in her old age, despite having no reason to any longer, because Johnny remember her cutting her hair for unknown reasons, and these reasons weren't resolved to him, so he has no reason to remember otherwise now.

Furthermore, I believe what others have said about the beta-blockers still fuzzily unlinking the earliest childhood memories to be true. Johnny still won't remember anything before the beta-blockers even after Eva saves Joey, because those memories are still purely subconscious (the machine can only nudge, not move or transplant memories), but his subconscious will remember Joey as not dead, which affects Johnny's conscious memories, and therefore Joey can follow him throughout life, while Johnny still won't remember any of their childhood.

See it this way: the memories are hidden by the beta-blockers, not by the memory of the beta-blockers, so even if Johnny's subconscious won't remember the beta-blockers any longer, the memories will still be hidden, because the beta-blockers were still there in the physical reality.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: sakaki on February 08, 2014, 03:54:13 PM
Hey Bill. The issue that's causing the issue you're having is stemmed from that last assumption you posted, though I don't blame you as that's what the game visually showed at one point. I'm on a plane at the moment (10 hour ride, ahhh), but I'll try to elaborate when I settle down later this weekend :)

Thank you, I hope you can clarify this some soon.  It's the only issue I can't seem to figure out yet.  It seems as if the new memories do not have the initial meeting occur since there's no indication that River remembers John at all.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Ponderer on June 22, 2014, 09:12:45 PM
I just want to add my two cents on an old question:
(Spoilers)

I'm surprised this is a question without a clear answer yet - unless I missed it.

If Eva went back and saved Joey, why did Johnny never go back to the carnival to see River?

I would like to first offer that EVA saving Johnny can happen in many ways, not the least of which is a simple rewrite in which she simply removed the events surrounding the beta blocked memories so as to help restructure her patients' memories without any further breakdown.  If this happened, the meeting with River could have been changed, removed, or irreparably damaged as well. 

It is demonstrated that the doctors have an ability to alter memories entirely by her very actions in this scene.  I see no reason to assume that this could not have a wider array of consequences.  Of course, there is a more direct explanation for this...

Since there was no traumatic death of Joey, Johnny would never have been given beta blockers to lose his memories.  Yet it seems as though he was given them;  He never went back for River at the carnival the next year, he has no recollection of River in school,  and only seems to want to go to the moon for his own sake and not to see River.  Unless I'm misunderstanding everything, it seems plotholeish.

I want to remind you, it is quite explicitly stated that Eva used her abilities to move River.  Specifically to move River to his subconscious.  In other words, he has no conscious memory of River.  We see her being moved from the school in his memories, first.  He didn't go back for River because Eva ensured that he had no direct recollection of her.  Neil called that removing her, but as we saw in the story it was not quite as absolute as that.

Regardless, this isn't about imaginary beta blockers, it's a direct result of the process Eva used to ensure her client was motivated to fulfill his wish!  I hope that makes sense to you.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Unimaginative Username on October 04, 2014, 06:39:16 PM
Hey Bill. The issue that's causing the issue you're having is stemmed from that last assumption you posted, though I don't blame you as that's what the game visually showed at one point. I'm on a plane at the moment (10 hour ride, ahhh), but I'll try to elaborate when I settle down later this weekend :)

So... how's the elaboration going?  ;)
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Kyo on October 05, 2014, 04:40:00 AM
Hey Bill. The issue that's causing the issue you're having is stemmed from that last assumption you posted, though I don't blame you as that's what the game visually showed at one point. I'm on a plane at the moment (10 hour ride, ahhh), but I'll try to elaborate when I settle down later this weekend :)

So... how's the elaboration going?  ;)
Prepare for a long, nine-months-worth-of-text post.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Chauncelle on October 16, 2014, 02:57:43 AM
Er isn't it the other way around? Not a plot hole - more like something that's important to the plot ending. Johnny and River not meeting again gave Johnny a reason to go to the moon. You know, so Johnny would want to see River again? So they can meet up on the moon? And Niel and Eva can finish their job?

From what I understand, when Eva saved Joey I assumed that Johnny didn't take any beta blockers and his lost memories are now open to him/remembers his meeting with River. I mean, why would Eva need to "move" River away from Johnny's high school memories? Isn't it so Johnny will keep on wanting to go to the moon (want to see River again)?

Meh I'm simple minded so I can only process simple things. I might be missing something here though...
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Abrom on November 23, 2014, 08:12:48 PM
Chauncelle - Lol, your post amuses me. It's like you agree with what everyone's saying, but then you pretty much post the same thing as billbaggins. Alright, let me give a jab at trying to make this clear.
Eva and Neil never changed anything prior to John's beta-blocked memories. They were able to see into those memories, but nothing was changed in them, and John still can't remember that stage of his life. The earliest change to his memories that we're shown is at the point when John was supposed to meet with River a second time and ask her out on a date. Instead of meeting River again, it was replaced with John hanging out with Joey and Nick. I imagine that this fake Joey memory was inserted at the earliest point past the beta-block stage for John to accept it as real and for it to even get to this teenage stage. But again, nothing was changed in the beta-blocked stage. Now, if you ask 'Well, what about the carnival, what about meeting River there?' Well, in his real memories, he never went back to that spot in his young years to meet her, and apparently that part stayed true in his new memories as well. Did River go back to that spot? Yeah, I'm pretty sure she did, but we don't really know and it's irrelevant; it's John's memories, and if John wasn't there, then we can't see it. Also, Eva and Neil must have tampered with John's taste to match what it was prior to the beta-blockers, since John now doesn't like pickled olives or animorphs (As for why he acquired those tastes after Joey's death, I have two ideas - 1. He either subconsciously convinced himself that he liked them as a homage to Joey, or 2. His mother convinced him that he liked them because she wanted him to be Joey).
So, while John grows up happily with his brother, his longing to go to the moon intensifies, since, subconsciously, that's where he'll meet River again. Now, of course, in John's mind, going to moon without River would have no meaning. That's why John's mind reintroduces River in NASA (he has plenty of old memories to throw together the perfect River). Another thing that was important to John was his For River/To The Moon song that he made. But, again, in his mind, this song has no meaning without River, so she had to be there when he played it. And, in this case, instead of the song acting as a 'goodbye' to River (and causing John some discomfort as we saw him try to play it after River's death), like it did in the real world, it's more of an icebreaker to start off a relationship with River in these new memories. They fall in love, fly to the moon together, and thus ends the epic story. Going to the moon = falling in love with River.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Erenussocrates on December 06, 2014, 06:04:10 AM
I just finished TTM yesterday and of course cried for a good duration of it.

Today, I was thinking about the story and came to realize something.

If Eva went back and saved Joey, why did Johnny never go back to the carnival to see River?

Since there was no traumatic death of Joey, Johnny would never have been given beta blockers to lose his memories.  Yet it seems as though he was given them;  He never went back for River at the carnival the next year, he has no recollection of River in school,  and only seems to want to go to the moon for his own sake and not to see River.  Unless I'm misunderstanding everything, it seems plotholeish.

I don't see how the Beta blockers are supposed to have affected the new memories Johnny remakes when Joey is saved.

Well, when eva moved river, she apparently moved her way before highschool, and right after their first meeting, to be exact I guess.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Abrom on December 06, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
This part of the story leaves a lot to the viewer's imagination. I THINKING that you might be right, and River was never even involved in John's highschool memories. Afterall, if John had met her in highschool, and then she suddenly disappeared, I think that he might have devoted his life to tracking her down, instead of following his subconscious goal of meeting her on the moon.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Avianna on February 08, 2015, 01:01:45 AM
I read so many responses, my ideas of how this works might flow into some other people's ideas.

I think Eva went back in time to save Joey. From there on out, she tried to hide River away from Johnny as a way to amp up his desire to go to the moon. I say this because when Johnny goes to ask River out, he obviously knows who she is, but she eludes him again because Eva figures out a way to hide her away. So the idea could be that she's always there in his memories of school and such, but he never has the life changing events with her because Eva hides her away. Because its not the right time for them to meet yet in his memories. He still needs that push to want to truly "Meet again at the Moon."

That's just my take on it, complete with examples used in game (ie her hiding away River from the stairs scene but him still having that memory)
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Abrom on February 08, 2015, 09:57:39 AM
I read so many responses, my ideas of how this works might flow into some other people's ideas.

I think Eva went back in time to save Joey. From there on out, she tried to hide River away from Johnny as a way to amp up his desire to go to the moon. I say this because when Johnny goes to ask River out, he obviously knows who she is, but she eludes him again because Eva figures out a way to hide her away. So the idea could be that she's always there in his memories of school and such, but he never has the life changing events with her because Eva hides her away. Because its not the right time for them to meet yet in his memories. He still needs that push to want to truly "Meet again at the Moon."

That's just my take on it, complete with examples used in game (ie her hiding away River from the stairs scene but him still having that memory)
I don't think that memory was actually still there, and was instead replaced with John walking down those same stairs with Nick and Joey.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Avianna on February 09, 2015, 04:04:59 AM
Nah. It was the first memory Eva changed. Them walking down the stairs really has nothing to do with that particular memory. That's why they show her using other random people in his memories pushing River away. That scene would not be included in the game if they didn't mean it to show that Eva pushed River out of memories that she needed to be out of to push his desire to go to the moon.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: GingerCorslette on February 09, 2015, 09:17:43 AM
Wait... what?  To those who are still confused, this is the whole premise of To the Moon:

1.  The game shows Johnny's original memories backwards (old to young), up to the constellation/platypus-giving scene.  Then, halt!
2.  Eva 'deletes' River but of course, let's assume what really happened: she 'just moved her'.
3.  Eva also saves Joey (visualising a door and saying 'There's one last thing I need to do...').
4.  Starting from the scene where Johnny, Nick, and Joey descend the stairs, the game then plays forwards what could've been Johnny's life with the modifications in #2-3.

During this 'second' life, Johnny and River's first meeting is at NASA.  Johnny going to the carnival would be pointless and irrelevant as River wouldn't be there.

That's it.  No plothole.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Avianna on February 09, 2015, 03:33:18 PM
Hrm. Then what gives him the motivation to go to the Moon in the '2nd Life' if he didn't meet her at the carnival when she was young?
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Abrom on February 09, 2015, 07:48:10 PM
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Nah. It was the first memory Eva changed.
I don't think that's accurate, because I'd like to believe that Joey existed in John's memories prior to that stairs scene. I think the reason it showed River getting taken away from that scene in particular is two fold - 1. It was a critical point that established the relationship between John and River, and 2. It's to show that it's that memory in particular that gets replaced with John walking with Joey and Nick.

Quote
Hrm. Then what gives him the motivation to go to the Moon in the '2nd Life' if he didn't meet her at the carnival when she was young?
Like I said before, I don't think anything was changed in John's beta-blocked memories. He still met River at the carnival, and he still wants to go to the moon; John just consciously doesn't know that River is the actual reason behind it, but subconsciously, he does. That's why River was reintroduced to him at NASA. It was the only way for him to accomplish his wish of going to the moon, and for his wish to still have meaning.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: GingerCorslette on February 09, 2015, 08:06:37 PM
Okay, this should sort you out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwWnyzGk-84 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwWnyzGk-84)
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: the8thark on February 13, 2015, 12:32:23 AM
My understanding of it all is this - feel free to disagree with this:

Johnny never actually goes to NASA.  And is never an astronaut.  His actual life is never changed or altered.  Only his perception of it is, ie his memories.  That's why it's so hard/impossible to deal with anything before the beta blockers.  Joey died, Johnny was given the beta blockers.  That all happened in reality.  And reality is not being changed here, only Johnny's perception of it (ie his past) is altered.

His life long desire for the moon was always there.  But in his current life he could never act upon it.  So the doctors went back to a time even before the beta blockers.  His memories are still there, just unable to be accessed by Johnny because of the blockers.  So those earlier memories are changed.  And thus Johnny's later memories change too as a result.  Even though Johnny can only remember past the blockers, what is there before the blockers affects what he can remember past the blockers. 

Along with the later not meeting up with River at school, his memories were artificially changed from a desire to help River (who certainly had autism or similar) and wanting to care for her, forever, to putting more effort into his own life and thus becoming the astronaut, in his new memories (or version of reality).  And in this new version of memories, River did not have Johnny to take care of her so she even though still not totally normal was very bright and could still make it into NASA as well.

In short all the doctors did was take edit Johnny's memories so he believes his desire for the Moon was never about caring for River and all about himself reaching for the Moon.  The reality never changed, he's still dying, he never went to the Moon.  But . . . the difference is his memories are slightly altered and this slight alteration makes all the memories of his life change.  He now has memories of something he was not.  A life he wished he had but never was able to have.

But there's more . . .

I believe the 1st Minisode protest outside the Tech Lab was about the public realising that you're changing a person's memories of their life away from reality and to what alternate life they wished they had lived instead.  So basically their last memory of their life was not real, but a happy lie so they can smile at the end before they pass on.  And a portion of the public would call this immoral, so they protested outside the Tech Lab.  Also the 2 doc's ashing each other about the morality of this whole issue to me means they are ok with doing it, as it's their job and a high paying one, but deep down inside I think both of them do not know what to think.  They are making someone happy but they are altering their last memories of their real lives.  And both Docs do not know if they agree or disagree with the this on moral grounds.

I have a question to you all . . .

Eva found his medications in the car near the end of the story and he tried to deny their existence.  What was that all about?  Is the effects of going into someone else's head affecting him?  Or is there more to it than that?  This little tid bit important to the story?  I think it just might be, but I never worked out why it's there in the first place and what significance it has.

And finally . . .

We have the developer's comments on the game.  But I think just like a song or any other piece of art, two people can view the same piece of art and get two totally different but plausible experiences from it.  And I feel this game is the same.  All of our opinions on the game, even if they differ to the developers' opinions are not wrong.  it's just how we experienced the game and what we thought about it when we played it.

As a form of entertainment (as this is) there is no real truth to it.  The truth is whatever we get out of it.  And because we are all unique people, we will all get something different out of this game.  And it will affect us each in different ways.  And that's why art can be so powerful, as you'll never know how your art work will affect or inspire someone else.
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: Abrom on February 13, 2015, 03:58:47 PM
I would have to disagree with you about one thing in particular, and that is that Eva and Neil never changed John's motivation for wanting to go to the moon. The motivation, in reality and in the new fake memories, was always River. If the doctors could change the motivation behind John's wish, then they never would have had to take River out of his memories. River was really the only reason he wanted to go to the moon, simply because they said that's where they would meet up if they ever lost each other.
Anyways, as far as theories about Neil and his painkillers go, there's a topic for that - http://freebirdgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=4637.15 (http://freebirdgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=4637.15)
Title: Re: Ending Plothole
Post by: the8thark on February 14, 2015, 10:51:52 PM
Of cause River was the motivation.  I agree with you on that.  Their meeting at the fairground cemented that into Johnny's mind.  They just had to remove his later meeting with River as school from his memories, so the want/motivation to go to the moon (River put there as a child) could be directed into himself and getting into NASA and not put entirely into River and in a way giving up on his NASA dream.

And thanks for the topic about the painkillers.