Author Topic: Cannabis  (Read 9001 times)

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atommo

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Cannabis
« on: September 13, 2015, 01:05:09 PM »
In the UK recently there's been quite a stir-up in wanting Cannabis to be legalised (mainly as a result of https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104349). You can sign this petition if you want, although it's for UK residents only.

To an average-joe who knows nothing they may shrug this off as "Huh. Guess those stoners want to get high more easily." However, the more research you do into Cannabis, the more questionable the reason why Cannabis is illegal becomes.

This explains the story behind the outlawing of Cannabis: http://www.drugpolicy.org/blog/how-did-marijuana-become-illegal-first-place

Summed-up version: Back in the 1920s Mexicans immigrated to America and the media wanted to stir up some hatred towards them (... the whole hatred against immigrants sounds scarily similar to now). Anyway, the Mexicans brought with them Cannabis which they referred to as “marihuana”. Americans were actually using Cannabis themselves in medicine and other products, and didn't realise the Mexicans were using the same drug.

"The demonization of the cannabis plant was an extension of the demonization of the Mexican immigrants". This eventually led to it being outlawed. For the more detailed story read the link.

So from that story, it indicates Cannabis was regularly used as a medicine and was not harmful. This directly contradicts the reasoning the UK government uses (they say Cannabis is harmful).

The even crazier thing is there seems to be a link between Cannabis and fighting cancer. However, Cancer UK claims there is no evidence from clinical trials. This raises the question... when will there be clinical trials? Hmm.

Here's some links to some stories where people have used Cannabis to combat cancer:

- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3043607/Cannabis-oil-cured-bowel-cancer-claims-father-33-given-just-18-months-live.html (17 April 2015)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2699875/I-cured-cancer-CANNABIS-OIL.html (21 July 2014)

I would take these with a pinch of salt because they're not from the most credible sources, but they seem to mostly be about the person who used the drug rather than the sensationalised storm stories they have been known to come up with.

While there may be some health risks to Cannabis, it is shown to be far]/i] less harmful than alcohol or cigarettes, so outlawing it based on that is just hypocritical. This makes me have a horrible feeling that pharma companies are involved, trying to stop its use since Cannabis cannot be patented meaning less profits. I cannot confirm that, but it would make a lot of sense.

So... after reading the history behind Cannabis and the scientific evidence of its health effects, are you for or against Cannabis and why? (I strongly recommend you read the links I included and possibly do some researching yourself first).

Also just to say, at the time of this posting I have not taken any cannabis (and probably won't unless I end up in some desperate situation such as terminal cancer, like in those stories).
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Sun

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2015, 01:34:41 PM »
A thought on something you mentioned. "Cannabis is less harmful than alcohol and cigarettes." So basically, someone is admitting that cannabis is harmful, and it should be legalized just because it's LESS harmful than other things. That's a strange kind of reasoning.

atommo

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2015, 01:39:56 PM »
A thought on something you mentioned. "Cannabis is less harmful than alcohol and cigarettes." So basically, someone is admitting that cannabis is harmful, and it should be legalized just because it's LESS harmful than other things. That's a strange kind of reasoning.

Well technically most drugs, legal or not, are harmful to some degree. In fact, according to RT (http://www.rt.com/usa/234903-marijuana-safer-alcohol-deadly/) "Smoking marijuana is 114 times safer than drinking alcohol".
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Sun

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2015, 01:46:49 PM »
Yeah, actually, we should get rid of all drugs! Can't have people put that stuff in their bodies, can we.
Of course, it's nigh impossible with things that are legal already. I have no idea how things look with cigarettes, but at least it's become harder to be a smoker these days. Alcohol though is so widespread, you couldn't get people to stop if you wanted to (prohibition, anyone?). So here's a drug where something can still be done, let's fight it!
Yes, I'm being annoying on purpose.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 01:50:38 PM by Sun »

TheFlyingMarlin

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2015, 02:05:53 PM »
As I'm pretty sure you know, this has been going on in the US for quite some time now. However, since the US has a federal system (unlike the UK, which is unitary), the individual states are able to make their own laws so long as they do not contradict federal law (cannabis laws are not being enforced on a federal level). Because of this, the states of Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Alaska, and the District of Columbia have legalized cannabis in all contexts, with over half of the other states allowing it for medicinal purposes. Some states have decriminalized possession as well.

Personally, I support cannabis legalization, since it would be better for everyone if it was regulated than outright illegal. If it is purchased from a licensed dispensary, cannabis would very likely be far safer than if purchased from some random guy off the street, who very well may have laced it with God-knows-what. Also, a lot of government funds are being wasted on enforcing cannabis laws when they could be used to fund drug treatment. Prison overcrowding is also a problem, which could be fixed if nonviolent offenders were not taken to jail.

Eli

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2015, 02:08:48 PM »
Quote from: atommo
So... after reading the history behind Cannabis and the scientific evidence of its health effects, are you for or against Cannabis and why?
I don't think I will ever use Cannabis personally, but I'm all right with it becoming legal in your country or mine.
Why? Because I don't think banning drugs has been that effective really, so maybe is better to make a not so harmful drug legal instead of putting it in the same place as the more harmful ones.

Personally, I support cannabis legalization, since it would be better for everyone if it was regulated than outright illegal. If it is purchased from a licensed dispensary, cannabis would very likely be far safer than if purchased from some random guy off the street, who very well may have laced it with God-knows-what. Also, a lot of government funds are being wasted on enforcing cannabis laws when they could be used to fund drug treatment. Prison overcrowding is also a problem, which could be fixed if nonviolent offenders were not taken to jail.
I just saw your post, I agree with your reason.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 02:10:41 PM by Eli »

atommo

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2015, 02:10:34 PM »
Yeah, actually, we should get rid of all drugs! Can't have people put that stuff in their bodies, can we.
Of course, it's nigh impossible with things that are legal already. I have no idea how things look with cigarettes, but it's become harder to be a smoker these days. Alcohol though is so widespread, you couldn't get people to stop if you wanted to (prohibition, anyone?). So here's a drug where something can still be done, let's fight it!
Yes, I'm being annoying on purpose.
Its good that you're taking the other stance or otherwise it looks a bit one-sided :P

It is true that things have become harder for smokers, but if they're determined enough they're still going to smoke. To be honest, I'd rather be in an area where someone's smoking Cannabis than someone smoking a cigarette (cigarette smoke makes my throat feel dirty).

Also Cannabis indicates health benefits compared to cigarettes which show health disadvantages (I mean, before the whole Mexican immigration hate in the 1900s Cannabis was commonly used in medicine (and possibly for recreation) with no qualms).

All of this leads me back to the feeling I get of cigarettes and alcohol being legal because they don't cure illness; therefore they are not a threat to big pharma companies. Cannabis can possibly treat and even cure cancer in some cases (and help treat many other illnesses- another being Multiple Sclerosis), which would be a BIG threat to the profits of those pharma companies.

I agree with you on the alcohol part. 3 out of 5 of my family drink alcohol fairly regularly (me being one of the other 2 out of 5 that don't drink alcohol).

As I'm pretty sure you know, this has been going on in the US for quite some time now. However, since the US has a federal system (unlike the UK, which is unitary), the individual states are able to make their own laws so long as they do not contradict federal law (cannabis laws are not being enforced on a federal level). Because of this, the states of Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Alaska, and the District of Columbia have legalized cannabis in all contexts, with over half of the other states allowing it for medicinal purposes. Some states have decriminalized possession as well.

Personally, I support cannabis legalization, since it would be better for everyone if it was regulated than outright illegal. If it is purchased from a licensed dispensary, cannabis would very likely be far safer than if purchased from some random guy off the street, who very well may have laced it with God-knows-what. Also, a lot of government funds are being wasted on enforcing cannabis laws when they could be used to fund drug treatment. Prison overcrowding is also a problem, which could be fixed if nonviolent offenders were not taken to jail.

All of those are good points. The money is also a point being used in favour of legalisation in the UK. If Cannabis was legal and taxed then the government would likely see a huge jump in money. The police wouldn't have to deal with Cannabis users, giving them more time to do other things and at the same time money would be made from the official sales tax (like with cigarettes and alcohol, but in a less deadly and potentially healthy form).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 02:17:08 PM by atommo »
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Sun

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 02:45:36 PM »
Also Cannabis indicates health benefits compared to cigarettes which show health disadvantages (I mean, before the whole Mexican immigration hate in the 1900s Cannabis was commonly used in medicine (and possibly for recreation) with no qualms).

They also have bad effects, such as hindering the brain development in young brains - not a good thing for kids and teens who smoke it for years. Sure there would be an age limit if it gets legalized, but making it a substance that can be bought everywhere would make it easier for them to get it.
And they can induce schizophrenia. I once read someone dismissing this point as "well, yeah, but only if you have a predisposition for it!". Okay, raise your hands, everyone who knows for sure that they have no predisposition for it. I had an acquaintance in whom the condition had been triggered by weed, anecdotal as that may be.

Quote
All of this leads me back to the feeling I get of cigarettes and alcohol being legal because they don't cure illness; therefore they are not a threat to big pharma companies. Cannabis can possibly treat and even cure cancer in some cases (and help treat many other illnesses- another being Multiple Sclerosis), which would be a BIG threat to the profits of those pharma companies.

I'm very very sceptical whenever people assume there are big conspiracies.
My assumption is rather, cigarettes and alcohol are legal because they've been legal for a very very long time, since before people made laws on this kind of stuff: Alcohol has been around since the dawn of civilization, and tobacco has been used in Western civilization since the discovery of the New World. And it is very hard to take away people's drugs once they are in wide use.
The pharma industry could even jump on the bandwagon and develop their own cure using cannabis, and then sell it for a nice profit. Because from what I read so far, there is no full cure using the substance yet, I just saw statements on "beneficial effects".
(Okay, there was one person claiming to have cured their skin cancer by rubbing cannabis oil on it, but I'm still sceptical since it sounds so fantastical. If it's true, I'd like to point out that cancer is not just on the surface of the skin, the big danger is tumor cells moving and spreading within the body.)

Oh, and it does feel like weed will get legal everywhere eventually. So much for whatever my opinions on this subject are, feels like it's not gonna change that.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 02:48:48 PM by Sun »

atommo

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2015, 03:02:49 PM »
If Cannabis could be patented I'm pretty sure there would already be some sort of treatment involving it. It is because a plant cannot be patented that you see such a lack in clinical trials regarding it.

I'm very very sceptical whenever people assume there are big conspiracies.
My assumption is rather, cigarettes and alcohol are legal because they've been legal for a very very long time, since before people made laws on this kind of stuff: Alcohol has been around since the dawn of civilization, and tobacco has been used in Western civilization since the discovery of the New World. And it is very hard to take away people's drugs once they are in wide use.

"The text describes the drug [Cannabis] as “a substance that is safer than alcohol, and has many uses. It is believed to have been used by humans for over 4,000 years, being made illegal in the UK in 1925”" - http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jul/25/cannabis-legalisation-petition-government-website

The predisposition to schizophrenia is a good point though. However; if I had terminal cancer I'd rather try Cannabis and put up with schizophrenia than die (unless for some reason I would prefer to die). Also, when you mentioned you were confused to how Cannabis could treat internal cancer, the Cannabis oil can be consumed (atleast I think that's how it is).

Also when I think about it, I've read some of the possible side-effects of an anti-dandruff shampoo (mentioning hair falling out and other crazy stuff). So its not like Cannabis is the only drug out there to have some potentially crazy side effects.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 03:05:43 PM by atommo »
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Sun

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2015, 03:23:58 PM »
If Cannabis could be patented I'm pretty sure there would already be some sort of treatment involving it. It is because a plant cannot be patented that you see such a lack in clinical trials regarding it.


I'm still not sure what is being claimed. Are they claiming that pure weed (via smoking, eating, bodily application) will cure cancer? If so, it should be easy to find out now in those US states where it's legal for medical purposes. And if it can be proven there, it would be a lot easier to argue for medicinal weed anywhere (which of course is not the same as weed for everybody).
Or are they saying part of whatever makes up cannabis is somehow beneficial? Then it needs research so whatever is behind that effect can be used to its full extent. Which will likely require making a medicine in pill form. Which means big profits await the one developing it, because you can patent those.

Quote
"The text describes the drug [Cannabis] as “a substance that is safer than alcohol, and has many uses. It is believed to have been used by humans for over 4,000 years, being made illegal in the UK in 1925”" - http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jul/25/cannabis-legalisation-petition-government-website


But not in the Western world. Not in Europe, and apparently not in the USA if it came there via Mexican immigrants.
I have no information though on the countries where it was first used. Was it always legal there? Were there ever tries to outlaw it, and did they work?

Quote
The predisposition to schizophrenia is a good point though. However; if I had terminal cancer I'd rather try Cannabis and put up with schizophrenia than die (unless for some reason I would prefer to die). Also, when you mentioned you were confused to how Cannabis could treat internal cancer, the Cannabis oil can be consumed (atleast I think that's how it is).


Okay, but weed legalization is about making it legal for everyone :P
It often sounds like medicinal weed proponents argue for it in hopes of making it acceptable enough to then become universally legal.
I can't in all seriousness argue against working cure for cancer. That would be inhuman. So if they can get it to work, then the cure should be allowed.

And now I should go to bed. Have a good one, man, and thanks for the discussion!

GingerCorslette

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2015, 05:53:50 PM »
In my country, if you prohibit these kind of things, it doesn't mean it'll go away.  It's just that the criminals - street criminals or business criminals - will run it.  They eventually make a lot of money, and sad to say most of the really rich people here are not like Bill Gates; instead, they'll want even more money for themselves and less for the others.  So I'm saying it's mainly a money thing, but that's just my opinion.  I mean, what's then the use of setting up a weed shop or taxing weed when everyone can grow it in their backyard...

As for the craziness stuff, weed is a little like acid where you have to be in a good 'set and setting' so to speak before using it - unlike alcohol where you can drink whatever mood you're in and feel more or less the same the next morning.  There are precautions to be taken for sure.

TheFlyingMarlin

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2015, 07:08:17 PM »
In my country, if you prohibit these kind of things, it doesn't mean it'll go away.

Same thing here; most people (or at least a good chunk of them) who would smoke pot if it were legal already do.

most of the really rich people here are not like Bill Gates; instead, they'll want even more money for themselves and less for the others.

Yeah, unfortunately Bill Gates is one of the few rich Americans who uses his money for good; many really rich people over here hoard their money as well.

EgotisticalRaven

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2015, 11:19:35 PM »
I don't know about the whole weed thing. I mean I hate being around people who are drunk, and I cannot imagine what it's like having high people around me, it just makes me feel uncomfortable. And I don't know how I'd like for people to be smoking weed near me or for the smell of it to be everywhere. At least with beer people cannot get others drunk by simply being around them, whereas with cigarettes you can get second-hand smoke and I'd imagine with weed there would be some form of second-hand smoke.

Other than comfort wise, I would be pretty happy for people to smoke it in their homes or to use it, as that part doesn't affect me. About the whole thing of side-effects and such, I think that stuff would only really happen if you take too much of it. Too much of anything is bad for you.
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atommo

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2015, 05:31:11 AM »
If Cannabis could be patented I'm pretty sure there would already be some sort of treatment involving it. It is because a plant cannot be patented that you see such a lack in clinical trials regarding it.


I'm still not sure what is being claimed. Are they claiming that pure weed (via smoking, eating, bodily application) will cure cancer? If so, it should be easy to find out now in those US states where it's legal for medical purposes. And if it can be proven there, it would be a lot easier to argue for medicinal weed anywhere (which of course is not the same as weed for everybody).
Or are they saying part of whatever makes up cannabis is somehow beneficial? Then it needs research so whatever is behind that effect can be used to its full extent. Which will likely require making a medicine in pill form. Which means big profits await the one developing it, because you can patent those.

Regarding that: you can grow your own Cannabis and make your own Cannabis oil (the main form of medical treatment which people tend to take in pills/on its own)- sure, pharma companies can sell it too but they won't be able to stop people making their own- you can only patent something you have invented such as a chemical compound (i.e. chemotherapy cream). You cannot patent a plant/plant remedy since it was not invented, rather, discovered.

Quote
"The text describes the drug [Cannabis] as “a substance that is safer than alcohol, and has many uses. It is believed to have been used by humans for over 4,000 years, being made illegal in the UK in 1925”" - http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jul/25/cannabis-legalisation-petition-government-website


But not in the Western world. Not in Europe, and apparently not in the USA if it came there via Mexican immigrants.
I have no information though on the countries where it was first used. Was it always legal there? Were there ever tries to outlaw it, and did they work?

It seems you misread that story. From http://www.drugpolicy.org/blog/how-did-marijuana-become-illegal-first-place:

"Mexican immigrants referred to this plant as “marihuana”. While Americans were very familiar with “cannabis” because it was present in almost all tinctures and medicines available at the time, the word “marihuana” was a foreign term. So, when the media began to play on the fears that the public had about these new citizens by falsely spreading claims about the “disruptive Mexicans” with their dangerous native behaviors including marihuana use, the rest of the nation did not know that this “marihuana” was a plant they already had in their medicine cabinets."

I recommend you read the full story in the link.

Quote
The predisposition to schizophrenia is a good point though. However; if I had terminal cancer I'd rather try Cannabis and put up with schizophrenia than die (unless for some reason I would prefer to die). Also, when you mentioned you were confused to how Cannabis could treat internal cancer, the Cannabis oil can be consumed (atleast I think that's how it is).


Okay, but weed legalization is about making it legal for everyone :P
It often sounds like medicinal weed proponents argue for it in hopes of making it acceptable enough to then become universally legal.
I can't in all seriousness argue against working cure for cancer. That would be inhuman. So if they can get it to work, then the cure should be allowed.

I guess I'm more for making Cannabis freely available mainly because of the medical benefits. You shouldn't need to have some medical condition to be able to use it: it can help keep you healthy (like vitamin C+D tablets) on top of being a treatment. A bit like Aloe Vera has healing properties and can be grown at home, its a bit ridiculous how you can't grow Cannabis at home for medical purposes.

Also, there are many medicines that many people with terminal conditions would love to try but the medical board blocks them since they aren't 'tested'. Thing is, I'd rather try risking an 'unproven' treatment that could possibly cure me than die anyway. Before testing is done those people are usually dead. Its a broken system in that way. Surely you should allow those people to try it if they want to (ofcourse making them aware of the risks), and they can be the test cases.
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Sun

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Re: Cannabis
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2015, 12:35:31 PM »
Ugh, I'd love to reply in detail but will be stuck in this hotel until Friday, currently without Wi-Fi password. Typing this on my mobile which has internet but is a pain for posting. So it'll have to wait at least until I get a Wi-Fi password. Or till I'm back home.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 12:41:21 PM by Sun »

 


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